A-20 paradox

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

The A-20G was first ordered on June 1, 1942 and first delivered in February of 1943. It introduced a solid nose armed with four 20-mm M2 cannon with 60 rpg and two 0.50-inch machine guns with 350 rpg. The four cannon were grouped in the forward part of the nose and projected well forward of the nose, with the two machine guns further back in the lower part of the nose. This new nose was introduced as a result of combat experience in the Pacific, where glass-nosed A-20s had been fitted with field modifications to increase their forward firepower during low-level strafing missions. The new nose made the A-20G slightly longer than previous variants. The A-20G retained the 0.5-inch flexible machine gun with 500 rounds in the rear cockpit, as well as the 0.30-in or 0.50-inch tunnel gun. The dorsal gunner's position was no longer equipped with emergency flight controls, and provision for photographic equipment was also deleted. Heavier-gauge armor plate was used, adding some 400 pounds to the weight. Carburetor deicing equipment was added.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a20_17.html

 

[Kweassa]

I've dueled some rather good pilots using an A-20 or Boston vs their favorite fighter. Won more than lost. Do not underestimate these aircraft.

"Rather good" pilots, but none of them on the same level as you yourself, I'd bet.

Maybe we should put Widewing in his A-20 against Widewing against his other fighter plane - let's say maybe the casual Spixteen.

Oh gee, same pilot.

Still think the A-20 will win?

[Yeager]

he was to fast in plane and to slow out of plane creating huge windows for me to float the A-20 thru as well as ample room and time to use the vertical to reload E and/or reset angles.

Keyword: "Float"   What the A-20 represents in this game is 16,000 pnds of a floating two engined zeke with six 50 cal MGs.

Did an A-20 EVER shoot down a enemy fighter aircraft in air combat? 

I would be really surprised if an A20 ever shot down a maneovering fighter aircraft in a one on one engagement.  Really surprised.   Cannot even fathom one shooting down 8-10 high perormance fighters in a single combat under any circumstances.   In this game a sortie like that is unspectacular.

Dawson in current mid war tour A-20G = 19 kills in, 5 kills of, 2 killed by, 1 died in

The A-20 flight model is porked.

[lyric1]

Keyword: "Float"   
Did an A-20 EVER shoot down a enemy fighter aircraft in air combat? 

I would be really surprised if an A20 ever shot down a maneovering fighter aircraft in a one on one engagement.  Really surprised.

If you count the p70 yes they did have air to air kills with fighters. Granted 20mm cannons & radar though.

[humble]

Your missing the point entirely...

The overall capabilities of the A-20 are pretty mundane in all areas except for two. 1) low speed stability at high AoA, 2) outstanding zoom...other then that its very marginal. However if you understand ACM and take advantage of both of those and combine that with its significant drag when pulled around under G's in a flat plane you have a combination that can work a bit of mojo IF you correctly apply ACM vs the opposing pilots mistakes. what makes the A-20 appealing to some is its unique capabilities (IMO) as an ACM platform. It was not really a "bomber", as WW noted its wing loading is comparable to many fighters and its got outstanding control surface authority for such a large plane. So within the meat of its flight envelope the plane is responsive, forgiving and has an easily manipulated lift vector. This makes the plane very versatile, I've been told by others that cobia and I fly it completely differently for example.

It does not however have performance matching any fighter outside of the parameters above. 90% of the time people die to an A-20 (mine at least) for clearly defined reasons...

1) Failure to correctly determine relative E state
2) Failure to correctly determine relative E bleed
3) Failure to correctly determine relative angular gain/loss during out of plane Manuevering
4) Failure to acknowledge that flying in front of 6 x .50 nose mounted guns WILL kill you
5) Failure to recognize that not everything that goes UP comes down as quickly as you might think
6) Failure to recognize that not everything that comes down SLOWS down as fast as you think
7) Failure to recognize that a Bigoscar plane sheds E very quickly in a flat turn
8) Failure to recognize that a Bigoscar plane picks up a lot more E in a 500 ft dive then you do

So in closing...U die vs an A-20 when you fail to recognize that it will kill you if you let it. I almost never kill any of the really seasoned vets since they recognize that a failure to treat my toy with respect will get them killed...so they just pound my sorry butt into the ground and move on....which is exactly what I do when I run into one.

[Ack-Ack]

Dawson in current mid war tour A-20G = 19 kills in, 5 kills of, 2 killed by, 1 died in

The A-20 flight model is porked.

Problem is that you're putting a sub-par pilot in your A-20.  As such, any comments from the sub-par pilot about how a particular plane is porked is easily dismissed.

Instead of using your own experiences, why not actually provide some proof on how the A-20G is over modeled?


ack-ack

[Yeager]

Your missing the point entirely...

Hey, if I am the only guy who feels the A20 is porked so be it.  It was no dogfighter in operational capabilities (no one has contested this oberservation) but in the game AcesHigh, mid war at least, it is one of the more successful fighters.  Just throws a flag up fo me.  However, not an important issue. 

[Yeager]

Problem is that you're putting a sub-par pilot in your A-20.  As such, any comments from the sub-par pilot about how a particular plane is porked is easily dismissed.

dearest most high emporer lord akak,

I do not have a pilot license. 

I do not fly planes.   

I am not a pilot. 

I do however play a cartoon game where I get to pretend I am a bad mean old WW2 fiter Pylit...but I got to admit, when compared to a awsome P38J studly gurlyman like you, with those three awsome vertical moves you exploit so well over and over and over and over and over again.......I am....by comparison to such unworthy greatness as you.......sub par.

I grovel in your self indignant ridiculousness 

[Widewing]

"Rather good" pilots, but none of them on the same level as you yourself, I'd bet.

Maybe we should put Widewing in his A-20 against Widewing against his other fighter plane - let's say maybe the casual Spixteen.

Oh gee, same pilot.

Still think the A-20 will win?

I rarely fly the Spit XVI and the analogy is a bit silly. Pick a mediocre fighter and things get more interesting.

The guys I was referring to were well above average...

Against a top tier pilot, the A-20 would be in trouble against most fighters. That's how it should be. The deal with the A-20 or Boston is to get the other guy to fight to your strengths.

What makes these two bombers especially deadly is that the opposing pilot rarely knows how capable they are. Unless they have learned to fly the A-20 and Boston to it limits throughout the envelope, they may not be prepared for what's coming. Their best bet is to stay fast and avoid getting sucked into a close-in knife fight, especially if flying a fighter that does not turn well.

It's not unlike picking on a fat kid, only to have him turn around and punch you in the eye.


My regards,

Widewing

[Wolfala]

I rarely fly the Spit XVI and the analogy is a bit silly. Pick a mediocre fighter and things get more interesting.

The guys I was referring to were well above average...

Against a top tier pilot, the A-20 would be in trouble against most fighters. That's how it should be. The deal with the A-20 or Boston is to get the other guy to fight to your strengths.

What makes these two bombers especially deadly is that the opposing pilot rarely knows how capable they are. Unless they have learned to fly the A-20 and Boston to it limits throughout the envelope, they may not be prepared for what's coming. Their best bet is to stay fast and avoid getting sucked into a close-in knife fight, especially if flying a fighter that does not turn well.

It's not unlike picking on a fat kid, only to have him turn around and punch you in the eye.


My regards,

Widewing

God knows, I fly a lot of planes with junk in the trunk.

[WWhiskey]

Keyword: "Float"   What the A-20 represents in this game is 16,000 pnds of a floating two engined zeke with six 50 cal MGs.

Did an A-20 EVER shoot down a enemy fighter aircraft in air combat? 

might take me some time to find it, i have posted the stats before but the answer is yes,
i will have to get on my home puter to find the stats tho.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

It's not unlike picking on a fat kid, only to have him turn around and punch you in the eye.


My regards,

Widewing

That is exactly true.

[Yeager]

most of the fat kids I dealt with were too damned slow to toss a punch let alone throw one.  Besides, I would never liken the A-20 to a fat kid.  More like a two engined zeke with six 50s.

[Yeager]

What makes these two bombers especially deadly is that the opposing pilot rarely knows how capable they are.

Unless they have learned to fly the A-20 and Boston to it limits throughout the envelope

Widewing

It is most interesting that you bring up the the Hovacs twin brother the Boston.........

In Mid War this Tour the Venerable Boston has accumulated the stunning total of 15 kills versus the A-20s meager 690 kills?   Fifteen kills opposed to Six Hundred and Ninety kills............

Apart from the guns package why would there be such a vast difference between these two especially deadly bombers in the MW arena? 

[cobia38]

It is most interesting that you bring up the the Hovacs twin brother the Boston.........

In Mid War this Tour the Venerable Boston has accumulated the stunning total of 15 kills versus the A-20s meager 690 kills?   Fifteen kills opposed to Six Hundred and Ninety kills............

Apart from the guns package why would there be such a vast difference between these two especially deadly bombers in the MW arena? 

 A20 rolls faster,takes damage better,has w.e.p. and more top speed at the most typical fight alt 3-5 k and 12-15 k, not to mention its sexier