A-20 paradox

[Yeager]

I do not doubt the A20 was a great low and medium altitude "Attack" platform in actual combat operations.  Indeed the record indicates it was maneuverable and a joy to fly.  Adding the single .50 cal gun to the dorsal position would be a welcome addition to A20 in AcesHigh.

The idea that a plane in AcesHigh does not have to reflect its usage, success or failure in actual combat operations is not a new idea, nor an idea I am unfamiliar with.  It seems that most of AH falls into that category.  But, there comes a time when it is obvious that something is out of balance.  That the A20 scores so heavily against fighters in the air to air sphere, as proven via the stats page, simply throws a flag up for me.  I believe that AH is a "reasonable" tool, by and large, for measuring basic performance characteristics simulated versus actual.  I believe that the success of the A-20 in AH goes beyond what should be considered reasonable given the historical record.

Still looking for any proof that the A-20 had a single confirmed kill in air to air combat (P70 notwithstanding).

Cobia and Snaphook are genuine pleasures to play the game with regardless of what ride they take out.  Unlike some, they treat other players fairly, with respect, and are great sports all the way around.  The MW arena is a better place because of them. 

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Fully Agreed. 


If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Now im wondering how much 20mm the 70 carried.

:Edit:  "Four 20-mm cannon with 60 rpg were installed in a ventral tub 240 total"
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p70.html

[Yeager]

Fully Agreed. 

If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.

Aye!  <S>!

Is this the part where we start drooling over the prospects of a P-61 in AcesHigh 

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Like most fanatics, if the 61 was ever added, with or WITHOUT a turret, again it would be a ride of choice for me.

A-20G P-39Q & P-61.


All my needs.

[cobia38]

Fully Agreed. 


If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Now im wondering how much 20mm the 70 carried.

:Edit:  "Four 20-mm cannon with 60 rpg were installed in a ventral tub 240 total"
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p70.html

 would rather have the quad 20 mm in the nose like its soposed to, then you could do those cute snapshots like the rest of the cannon rides  

[CAP1]

I do not doubt the A20 was a great low and medium altitude "Attack" platform in actual combat operations.  Indeed the record indicates it was maneuverable and a joy to fly.  Adding the single .50 cal gun to the dorsal position would be a welcome addition to A20 in AcesHigh.

The idea that a plane in AcesHigh does not have to reflect its usage, success or failure in actual combat operations is not a new idea, nor an idea I am unfamiliar with.  It seems that most of AH falls into that category.  But, there comes a time when it is obvious that something is out of balance.  That the A20 scores so heavily against fighters in the air to air sphere, as proven via the stats page, simply throws a flag up for me.  I believe that AH is a "reasonable" tool, by and large, for measuring basic performance characteristics simulated versus actual.  I believe that the success of the A-20 in AH goes beyond what should be considered reasonable given the historical record.

Still looking for any proof that the A-20 had a single confirmed kill in air to air combat (P70 notwithstanding).

Cobia and Snaphook are genuine pleasures to play the game with regardless of what ride they take out.  Unlike some, they treat other players fairly, with respect, and are great sports all the way around.  The MW arena is a better place because of them. 

i think that a large part of the reason that the a20 does so well against other players, is due to the fact that most of us are only average.(like someone else was alluding to). combine that with the fact that she's mostly flown by good pile-its, and you have your answer.

 on that note.....i had nkl5 turnfighting against me in a lanc.......but i didn't come here and gripe that the lanc couldn't turnfight. i think that was one of the most hillarious and fun fights i've ever had in ah.

 i try to take it for what it is. it's a ww2 sim, and a game. when i manage to get in, it's my escape from reality. as long as i can get a good fight(and there's plenty to be had in mw), it;s all good.

 that's all that should matter. if you want more reality, then fly in fso, or i think i heard axis vs allies is good too.
 for $15 a month....no matter HOW ya slice it, this is one of the absolute best valued entertainment packages out there.

 you are right, BTW.....snap and cobia DO make mw one helluve better place. i always enjoy fighting them, although cobia shot my butt down so many times in one furball, that i was starting to think he hated me.  

snaphook........again, that man is unbelievable in how well he handles both the a20, and the sbd.

 just learn to fight against it in here......don't worry 'bout what it could or couldn't do in r/l. have fun. beat 'em at their own game. it's possible, i've done it...and seen it done. me personally, i tried flying the a20 a lng time ago...and died promptly.  

 have funnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CAP1]

Fully Agreed. 


If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Now im wondering how much 20mm the 70 carried.

dude.....THAT sounds painful. we better petition against the p70. 

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Thing is, with only 240 20mm the ammo will run out very quickly.

It will also lack the rear guns, but that might help reduce the weight.

[CAP1]

Aye!  <S>!

Is this the part where we start drooling over the prospects of a P-61 in AcesHigh 

mid atlantic air museum on reading airport is restoring one.

[Ack-Ack]

Fully Agreed. 


If ever we get the P-70 i would $%^& bricks for at least a week tho, and then some.
Now im wondering how much 20mm the 70 carried.

:Edit:  "Four 20-mm cannon with 60 rpg were installed in a ventral tub 240 total"
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p70.html

The P-70 could be considered a failure in an operational sense but had it's worth as a trainer.  The majority of the P-70s never left the States and were used as primarily by the 481st Night Fighter Operational Training Group to develop tactics and to train crews on the use of radar and night time operations.  Think around 4 or 5 P-70 squadrons were deployed overseas.  2 of those though were given the Beaufighter and P-61 to fly instead of the P-70 they were deployed with.  The other squadrons were deployed to the PTO were they were not very successful in intercepting the night time Japanese raiders over Guadalcanal and New Guinea.  The P-70 lacked sufficient performance to be able to intercept the Japanse night raiders.  The P-70 is only credited with 2 air to air kills during its entire wartime service.


ack-ack

[mtnman]

That the A20 scores so heavily against fighters in the air to air sphere, as proven via the stats page, simply throws a flag up for me.  I believe that AH is a "reasonable" tool, by and large, for measuring basic performance characteristics simulated versus actual.   

I don't think you should put so much weight on the stats as proof of much of anything when comparing planes to each other.

I just looked up some recent stats for another plane that has had some pretty dedicated doubters when it comes to it's FM.  To put it bluntly, it's been called over-modelled, uber, UFO'ish yada, yada, yada.  Now, if we look to the stats for "proof", we'd find that the actual K/D "success rate" of the F4U is-
F4U-1 0.88 /1
F4U-1A 1.23 /1
F4U-1C 2.57 /1
F4U-1D 0.71 /1
F4U-4 2.48 /1

-which could actually lead me to believe that the AH F4U is pretty radically under-modelled, since the books tell me the F4U held around an 11.3/1 K/D in the war.  (I don't actually feel that way, btw)

I also can't remember seeing any articles telling me that it was successful when flown against B17's, Stuka's, spitfires, etc...

In short- I don't think we can use AH stats or WWII stats to decide whether a particular plane has an accurate FM in AH.

Quite honestly, there are some guys flying the A20's in this game that can make them dance around in ways that it seems maybe they shouldn't.  That can be said for practically any plane though.  However, if you don't fly to the strengths of the A20 it really isn't very difficult to shoot down, either.  Like with any other plane, it really comes down to pilot skills/errors/misconceptions of E-states, etc...

So- is the A20 Fm correct?  I don't know- but I sure wouldn't form an opinion based on how it's used and how successful it is in the game vs in reality.  Ah pilots are quite different, and performing at quite different levels and in different circumstances than "normal" WWII pilots did as well...

[CAP1]

Thing is, with only 240 20mm the ammo will run out very quickly.

It will also lack the rear guns, but that might help reduce the weight.

it used to last me plenty long when i flew the hurri2c.

[WWhiskey]

Still looking for any proof that the A-20 had a single confirmed kill in air to air combat (P70 notwithstanding).

me too lol
confirmed the two p-70 kills
 found one claim of 4 other combat kills, 2 each on consecutive nights,
 but cannot confirm these as of yet (takes time to find the needle in the haystack that is the chronological order of battle U.S. army air corps) alot of theses stats were not consecutively recorded, i know i have seen them, but the thousand or so pages makes it tough( kinda like when i spent 5 days trying to find a single instance of p-38's escorting b-29's sometime in 1945) found that too but don't ask me what i did with it!!
 the actual story i was looking for was 2 a-20's killing 2- Ki44  (Tojo's) that were chasing two other U.S. planes,

while looking for the last two days i have watched training films,(kinda kool stuff) and learned that most of the people that had anything to say about its flight ability said it was probably the most underestimated, in its potential, as an attack aircraft.
 i know that's not saying it did what it does in the game, but it does lean toward the direction that in capable hands,(fearless as well) it might have!
who would have thought that the first Boeing jet liner would have been able to do a barrel roll?
the pilot,,
so he did one, in front of an aw shocked crowd. at its unveiling, proving to many, that you cant rule out anything!
 

[Ack-Ack]

who would have thought that the first Boeing jet liner would have been able to do a barrel roll?
the pilot,,
so he did one, in front of an aw shocked crowd. at its unveiling, proving to many, that you cant rule out anything!
 [/b][/i]

Here's the video of Dash 80's barrel roll back in the 1950's.

Dash 80 Barrel Roll


ack-ack

[WWhiskey]

Here's the video of Dash 80's barrel roll back in the 1950.

Dash 80 Barrel Roll


ack-ack

ty   i didnt want to try to find that myself, very kool