Author Topic: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII  (Read 9552 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2009, 07:43:48 PM »
It's not worth arguing with them.   They'll contradict themselves, which they've done already in this thread.   

 :salute  Bald,  they just HAVE to be right.   Let them and laugh at them.   
I have no idea what you are on about.  He made a claim that was wrong, I said so, he posted a bunch of stuff while never acknowledging that he had been wrong, I misunderstood that and explained his post didn't back up his earlier claim.


Nobody is disputing that the F6F Hellcat was a great fighter.  That is self evident.
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Offline TheZohan

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2009, 07:54:03 PM »
The F6F Hellcat did have a 19 : 1 kill ratio

second closest was the corsair with 12:1

i think these would be the best in the certain

1) Best low to medium altitude fighter: Yak-3 / 9U
2) Best high altitude fighter: Ta-152H
3) Best bomber escort fighter: P-51H
4) Best ground attack dogfighter bomber: P-47
5) Best fighter-vs. fighter: Grumman Hellcat
6) Best photo reconnaissance fighter: Late model Spitfire
7) Best overall fighter of WWII for all missions taken together: Ta-152H
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 07:58:47 PM by TheZohan »

Offline 71313

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2009, 09:49:35 PM »
how did you come up with that ta-152 best overall :O
handle the business,before the business handles you

Offline TheZohan

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2009, 09:50:34 PM »
i think its a really good plane for the missions it flew

Offline Karnak

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2009, 02:29:40 AM »
i think its a really good plane for the missions it flew
It flew so few missions I have no idea how you can claim that.

Capt. Eric Brown said the best fighters of WWII that he had flown were the F4U-4, Fw190D-9 and Spitfire Mk XIV as I recall.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2009, 12:17:55 PM »
how did you come up with that ta-152 best overall :O

Probably the same way he came up with a bomber escort that never saw action.  Came too late in the war to see action in the ETO and PTO and was deemed unsuitable for action in Korea. 

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Offline Raga

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2009, 03:01:40 PM »
mike vick
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Offline TheZohan

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2009, 04:10:20 PM »
except he was never in WWII he was in VA

Offline rapp25

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2009, 09:52:19 AM »
How come I am not seeing any P-38 love here?

I mean they did have the top two American Aces in the War.

It does everything well, not great but well.

Incredibly difficult aircraft to fly but in hands of an expert pilot is was pretty unbeatable as it could do things a lot of aircraft couldn't.

Offline Widewing

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2009, 12:01:31 AM »
The FM-2 beat out the F6F by a CONSIDERABLE margin (think I saw somewhere estimated as high as 30-40:1).

Given that the Hellcat fought in greater numbers, there is no doubt it carried the greater weight in winning the war in the Pacific.

The F4F won the fighter war in the South Pacific. Guadalcanal was the meat grinder that broke the back of Japanese air power in the theater, and was to the cream of Japan's fighter pilots what Midway was to their carrier forces. Before Guadalcanal the Allies could STILL have lost the war. Guadalcanal guaranteed that they would WIN, and it was the WILDCAT that saw them through that campaign. Later fighters were really just the final nails in the coffin.

You have to examine the aircraft that were typically encountered by the FM-2. They flew from escort carriers, which meant that they spent the bulk of their time supporting ground ops, covering TBMs, and flying BARCAP for the CVEs. There weren't many fighters to be engaged. Mostly, they killed bombers and suicide aircraft. If you check the Navy Statistical Digest, you'll find this was the case. FM-2s never got anywhere near a big fight... The CVEs were too slow to sail with the fast carriers. Also consider that the statistical sample is very small. A dozen FM-2s on 15 CVEs doesn't add up to many aircraft. FM-2s did well, but the opposition wasn't especially deadly overall.

I would also argue that the F4F didn't break the back of Japanese air power. They held the door, but could not push out. There were many contributors to crushing Japanese air power. However, you have to separate the services. Wildcats rarely encountered the JAAF. They mostly dealt with the IJN. F4Fs were not very good as escorts, simply because they were hard pressed to defend themselves. I read somewhere that the the SBD killed more IJN pilots than the F4F. How so? It killed them while they were aboard their carriers. Nearly 20% of IJN carrier pilot casualties were the result of going down with their ships.

There can be no question that the F6F was responsible for the bulk of the devastation to Japanese air power. Hellcats shot down more Japanese aircraft than the F4F/FM, P-38, P-39, P-40, P-47 and P-51 combined. Over 5,000 kills.


My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 12:04:23 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Slade

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2009, 02:43:19 PM »
IAR-80 and Ki-100
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Offline Karnak

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2009, 01:08:53 AM »
IAR-80 and Ki-100
Ki-100 = Ki-61-II with a reliable engine.

I don't think it comes anywhere near the best Japanese fighter (when both are operable) let alone the best dogfighter of WWII.
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Offline 1pLUs44

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2009, 05:00:47 AM »
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Offline Stubborn Horse

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2009, 05:48:17 PM »
I'll tell you the best dogfighter of the war...  The B-17E! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO-u2nE_Cjw&feature=related

Offline Stubborn Horse

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Re: BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2009, 05:56:03 PM »
The F6F Hellcat did have a 19 : 1 kill ratio

second closest was the corsair with 12:1

i think these would be the best in the certain

1) Best low to medium altitude fighter: Yak-3 / 9U
2) Best high altitude fighter: Ta-152H
3) Best bomber escort fighter: P-51H
4) Best ground attack dogfighter bomber: P-47
5) Best fighter-vs. fighter: Grumman Hellcat
6) Best photo reconnaissance fighter: Late model Spitfire
7) Best overall fighter of WWII for all missions taken together: Ta-152H

I beg to differ, the best photo recon fighter was the Mosquito, which in certain configs was a fighter

Also, the TA wasn't the best over all because it couldn't do ground attack.  I maintain that the P-47 or 51 is the best over all.