BEST pure DOGFIGHTER in WWII

[Saxman]

Um....VMF IS a fighter squadron.

And IMO, you have to factor in the tactics because it's virtually impossible to separate tactics from dogfighting.

[Patches1]

V = Fixed Wing
M = Marine
F = Fighter

V = Fixed Wing
F = Fighter


VF   = U S Navy
VMF = U S M C

When you load Fighters up with Bombs and Rockets...they become Fighter/Bombers...Fighters first, Bombers second.

The F4U Series of aircraft flew this mission well.

The F4U-4 flew this mission exceptionally well.

[Patches1]

In Europe...the P47 probably fullfilled the roll of the F4U series

[Patches1]

Oh...an aside...since General Marshall did not want any Marines in Europe, having been usurped by the Marines in WWI, he declined the Marines' offer to assist in the European Theater in WWII.

[Saxman]

That's what killed Project Danny (Marine F4Us using Tiny Tims to take out V1 sites).

[humble]

1) speed
2) range
3) effective firepower

These are the attributes that always control the fight. In the end the faster plane is the only one that can employ its tactics of choice. Thats why in a 1 on 1 given equal pilots the 109 owns the spitfire....all the time every time even though the spitty is clearly the better "dog fighter". Range provides operational flexibility and can offer tactical advantage. Effective firepower goes beyond the guns on board and includes cockpit ergonomics, views, ammo load out, gun sight etc.

When you take all these things into consideration one plane stands out....the Pony. I remember watching one of these "best fighter" shows (history channel?) and a Luftwaffe ace made a telling comment. It wasn't the ponies capabilities compared to the 109 that made it special...it's that it was doing it over Berlin or words to that effect.

Now within the plane set the F4U-4 is clearly the superior plane, but leaving that aside a man in a pony has nothing to fear but a better pilot.

[BlauK]

Brewster B-239.
Best K/D

[moot]

"Pure" dogfighter, no categories or time periods?  I'd have to say the 163 by far.

[humble]

"Pure" dogfighter, no categories or time periods?  I'd have to say the 163 by far.

Outside of range yes, what was the attrition rate for landing?, I know the 262 had significant loses...given the 163's very limited range I'd say that its a very vulnerable bird. However if a 163 could have been fitted with a single jet engine I think it might have been a very formidable fighter even at a lower speed. Easily the best airframe of the war IMO.

[Karnak]

"Pure" dogfighter, no categories or time periods?  I'd have to say the 163 by far.

I don't think the Me163 could really "dogfight" in the traditional sense at all, so no.

[Sox62]

It seems to me that we need to define what dogfighting is.The discussion is best dogfighter,not best turner.Using E and going vertical is no different than turning.It's employing your fighter's strengths to exploit another fighters weakness.

The fact that that F4U can't match the Zero in the one thing it does well doesn't make the Zero a better "dogfighter" imho.

[Rebel]

I'd have to say the KI-84, the Zero, the Hellcat and the Spitfire.  Best at doing everything a fighter really needs to do.

Hellcat is kind of a special case- it's "good" but not great at everything, which is what makes it cool

[Steve]

1) speed
2) range
3) effective firepower


When you take all these things into consideration one plane stands out....the Pony.

I'm all teary eyed from reading this. *sniff*

My pony is getting some love.

[moot]

I don't think the Me163 could really "dogfight" in the traditional sense at all, so no.

Well, look at the criteria here.. The 163 is so good that it's the exception to even this absolute comparison.  It outturns, out guns, out maneuvers and out thrusts everything.  Otherwise, I'd say the 262.  It decides the fights' outcome. 
I think you guys need to constrain this comparison a little more, otherwise the late war optimized air superiority designs make any of the capable approaches like the Zero just benign.  The same way the paradigm later shifted to pushing buttons to kill things before they're even visible to the naked eye.

Put Germany and the allies back in WWII, and make it a purely dogfighting war.  No attrition by carpet bombing or ground warfare or anything. The Komet just wipes the floor with everything, given 1:1 odds, IMO.  This comparison needs better criteria if you're going to rule out the 163.

And making Speed, Range, Firepower the criteria still doesn't rule out the 262 as an arguable alternative to the P51.  I also think the Tempest and maybe F4U4 (I've never flown the latter above 25k) beat it on these criteria.  The P47N flown that high up is probably also a contender.  None of them compare with the 163, though.

[Bronk]

Best prop fighter.