Author Topic: Loops  (Read 1382 times)

Offline Lance48

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Loops
« on: March 02, 2009, 12:09:03 AM »
I’m loosing too often in vertical loop fights. Is there a trick to get inside when two planes are in a vertical loop fight? Assume both planes start equal in altitude and energy.

I believe it must be me and not the plane. I lost in three loop fights.

Me in Yak9u VS F4U-1

Me in Yak9u VS Spit 16

Me in BF109g6 VS KI84


I know it’s not great info to start, but any tips for such battles would be great.

Offline JunkyII

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Re: Loops
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 12:19:49 AM »
if you arent using flaps then there is your first problem, also when your nose is towards the ground are you chopping throttle, and some of those fights were gunna be losses just because of the planes you were going against :salute
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Offline Steve

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Re: Loops
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 12:42:33 AM »
auto trim off!
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: Loops
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 06:51:50 AM »
In the Yak9u flaps are not going to be a huge help. He's normally going to be better off keeping a bit faster that the flaps will deploy at.

F4u & spit 16 in good hands can both be a handful for the yak to deal with.

109 vs KI-84 again you want to keep the fight just fast enough so that the KI-84 can't deploy flaps on you.

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Loops
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2009, 09:25:48 AM »
Me in Yak9u VS F4U-1

Me in Yak9u VS Spit 16

Me in BF109g6 VS KI84

With equal pilots you should lose all three of these "loop" fights.
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Offline Lance48

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Re: Loops
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2009, 10:02:10 AM »
Thanks guys. Back to training arena for me to see how best to get out of that situation once I've committed to a losing fight.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Loops
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2009, 08:13:46 PM »
Better check to make sure you don't have the Stall Limiter enabled in your Flight Options.  That will severly handicap you as well against someone who is flying with it off...
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Loops
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2009, 08:50:35 PM »
You are probably losing 'loop fights' because a loop fight in itself is typically a sign of bad ACM.  Learn the hammerhead maneuver.  See a trainer.   :aok

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Loops
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2009, 10:29:18 PM »
You should have lost all three of those in a continuous looping fight.  If you're losing looping try something else.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Loops
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 09:49:50 PM »
You should have lost all three of those in a continuous looping fight.  If you're losing looping try something else.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Loops
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2009, 10:08:25 PM »
You are probably losing 'loop fights' because a loop fight in itself is typically a sign of bad ACM.  Learn the hammerhead maneuver.  See a trainer.   :aok

Really got to wonder about performing a hammerhead maneuver with an nme fighter on your six.  The Hammerhead is a vertical maneuver allowing the aircraft to become very slow,  I got to think that at the point in the maneuver where you apply ruder to swing the nose 180 degrees to point down.  That about halfway through the maneuver the pilot performing the hammerhead would be dead.  The whole point of the looped fight is to prevent the nme from getting  angels for a shot.
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Offline DamnedRen

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Re: Loops
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 03:03:47 AM »
Loops have a tendency to take a while to complete. Time is mone...wait a minute. Let's start over...

A loop can be akin to an airline pilot trying to not make all the passengers sick by rolling hard and pulling too many G's.
The average bank angle in a passenger plane is 22.5 degrees although they can and do exceed it. Nice turn but not gonna keep the average fighter pilot alive in a dogfight. That nice turn is what we sometimes call a flat turn on the horizon. It's fairly easy to
cut inside. Let's take a look at why this may be happening.

We can begin by waiting until your wife, girl friend, mom, etc., decides to boil up some hard boiled eggs and when they are not looking grab one before the shell gets broken and peeled off.  Now take that egg and sit it on it's fat end. Ever notice how it has a pointy end and a big round end? Let's call the big round end the "fat end".  Alternatively, you can draw an egg on a piece of paper or even use a lil imagination and see it in your mind. Whatever, works for you is great! Personally, I like using an egg cause then I can snack on it later...

Ok, so now we have an egg sitting on its fat end. Grab a pen and start anywhere on the egg. Draw a line anywhere around the egg so that you end up back where you started. That line you drew can be described as how a plane flies through three dimensional (3D) airspace. Draw a few more lines....cool, huh?

Let's take a look at your loop. If you ease your way through the top of the egg so that the plane doesn't merely fall over (gravity assisted?) and begin going back down you are performing a loop. As you draw the line further down the shell of the egg and pull through the bottom of the loop you will notice you are down there in the fat end of the egg. So gravity and your planes engine speeds up your downhill run to the bottom of the loop which created a fairly wide base of the loop. You can pull for all your worth and may even go into black out if you pull to hard. But, the plane is going to perform that big bottom of the loop dependent on your planes speed. Other factors are involved dependent on the type of plane but for now let's just stick with the egg. If you pull for all your worth going up over the top and down through the bottom you will basically describe that same line you drew around the egg. The same plane following you may be easing his throttle back a little bit going over the top. This creates a bit more flop over on top. It also can put him diectely inside your turn. If he keeps his throttle down his turn through the bottom of the loop might be a little tighter than yours. As you both go back up he adds war ermergency power (wep) and maintains position. Repeat and each time he may further close that gap until he has you. Simple but effective use of the egg.

Let's go back to our airline pilot flying that nice flat turn designed to allow the passengers to retain their lunches. Grab your pen again. Let's say your are turning into that slower plane and you need to slow a bit to match his speed for a comfortable shot.
If he is driving around that fat part of the egg and you are speeding in a slight nose up deviation will do the same thing that your loop is doing. As you nose up the plane slows a little, you pull back in. If you are too slow you can nose down, again gravity helps along with the engine pulling you downhill and you speed up and climb back to his 6 and BANG! These two maneuvers are called a high and low yoyo. Draw them on your egg.The principle doens't change. It merely uses the vertical to help control speed. BTW, a high or low yoyo may require only a hundred feet. Maybe a little more or even less. It's sometimes hard to see a hundred feet when doing 300 mph but after a while you begin to judge speeds, angles and the vertical more effectively. Going back to the egg you can actually draw a line anywhere up or down the side of the egg from the bottom of it up to the very top. The higher you draw the line the tighter you might turn your plane. Lastly you might get behind that flat turning dude and cut your throttle a little, maybe even drop flaps if required and turn right inside him for that satisfying BANG!

Lessee, back to the loop a last time... A loop might be considered a flat turn in the vertical depending on how it's flown.

There's some much to learn...but ya gots lotsa time. :) You've probably read many terms on flying. Every one has a meaning and a use in a dogfight. Putting them all together let's you begin to use tactics to control and win the fight. Terms like unloading, lift vector, zero-G dive, the 3-9 line, flying to the post (there's so much more, too) all have a place in a dogfight and the more you learn the funner it gets!!!

Spend some time with a trainer. They can help you make the funner happen sooner. BTW, if yer done writing on that egg mind if I grab it? I can use mine and make myself an egg salad sandwich.

Hope this helps.

 :salute

Ren
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Offline uptown

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Re: Loops
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 09:09:31 AM »
You are probably losing 'loop fights' because a loop fight in itself is typically a sign of bad ACM.  Learn the hammerhead maneuver.  See a trainer.   :aok
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Offline Delirium

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Re: Loops
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 11:53:28 PM »
You are probably losing 'loop fights' because a loop fight in itself is typically a sign of bad ACM.  Learn the hammerhead maneuver.  See a trainer.   :aok


Disagree with that comment on the basis not all aircraft do well when they become slow enough to actually do a modified hammerhead. Some even lose more alt trying to recover than if they had just used their radial G to nose over at the top.

I'm not suggesting that endless looping is a viable tactic, I'd rather see someone do a lag displaced roll to reacquire the angles and range instead of overshooting or 'looping'.
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Offline chewiex

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Re: Loops
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2009, 09:53:04 AM »
 :aok  Great write-up Ren!  :aok

I have read, watched and tried the very thing you explained. Took me a little time (slow learner), but it definately makes a huge difference in the outcome of a vert and hort "looping" fights. I personally hate looping fights, though I find myself in one 4 out of 5 times. Poor ACM on my part.  :salute

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