Author Topic: mosquito fans  (Read 27228 times)

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #165 on: July 30, 2009, 08:34:57 AM »
Figured it out - have to assign to X and Y values to each individual series in the "source data" dialog box. More later.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #166 on: July 31, 2009, 06:36:26 AM »
OK, tried to get some numbers together. The graph is a touch "off" on the Y-axis due to mine own difficulties with Excel.

The original tables I've copied from are all available on Mike Williams' wonderful site.

First is the Boscombe Down test of HX908. They tested it to compare the performance of 150 octane fuel at +25 lbs boost to regular fuel at +18 lbs boost. The curve for the regular fuel speeds is at 95% of takeoff weight, with external tanks on and using saxophone exhausts.

HX809 is the starting point as the other FB.VI tested by Boscombe Down, HJ679, was described as being not representative in its tests there. I've used de Havilland's (not Boscombe Down's) tests of HJ679 as a reality check, though the Boscombe report for HJ679 does have useful information re: relative speeds with tanks on and off.

I'm trying to get from the speed curve from the HX809 tests (carried out with drop tanks attached and saxophone exhausts) to a speed with no tanks and with the ejector stub exhausts, then check it against another actual test.

So here's the HX809 test curve (note it's te left-hand one which is relevant; +18 lbs boost. The other, faster one is for +25 lbs boost, which requires 150-octane fuel, which is "another fine mess."



The next step is to "add back" the speed loss from having the external drop tanks attached. Here's the relevant test numbers from HJ679 (see above). The average speed loss is 5 mph (5.1 mph if you want to pick nits), growing much larger at higher altitudes. I believe these were 50-gal tanks.



The full test with the full range of speed diffrences at altitude is on Mike Williams' site - report for HJ679.

The next step is to find a value for the speed loss associated with sexophone vs. ejector stubs. I've posted the resulting graph on here before. The exact numbers for the speed loss for the range of altitudes tested is here, again from Mike Williams' site. Test was done on DK290, a B.IV, with max +9 lbs boost. The Merlin 25s on the FB.VI can use +18 lbs boost - I'll leave it to greater minds to speculate on whether there'd be any real difference in speed gain as a result.





Average speed gain for changing the exhausts across the range tested is 15 mph, 15.4 mph for nit-pickers.

So, then I put together a graph containing the original HX809 test, then a curve for the gain from dropping tanks, then a curve from the gain from using the stub exhausts, then a curve for an aircraft with no tanks and stubs, using the raw numbers from the tests. It's as near as dammit to simply adding 20 mph to the HX809 speeds.

To check for reality, I then put on a curve for another FB.VI, HJ679, as tested by de Havillands with no drop tanks and with stub exhausts. (Boscombe Down, as noted above, had complained that HJ679 was not performing as expected, so dH took it back and ran some more tests, which confirmed it had been about 15 mph too slow at Boscombe. The test data from dH for HJ679 with no tanks and stubs is from April '43, before the aircraft went to Boscombe).

As you can see from the orange curve, my calculations give a result which is very close to dH's, in fact mine are a few mph on the conservative side. There's only one data point with any real difference, and mine is lower than dH's). As dH tested HJ679 at 19,000-odd pounds, instead of 21,000-odd, this may account for the difference.



So, I get a deck speed of 352 mph, overall best TAS of 383 mph.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 06:40:01 AM by Scherf »
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Karnak

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #167 on: July 31, 2009, 08:17:51 AM »
Very nice, scherf.

Thanks for the effort you are putting into this.
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Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #168 on: July 31, 2009, 08:21:36 AM »
No worries Karnak - here's hoping...

 :D
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline FTJR

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #169 on: July 31, 2009, 08:37:14 AM »
Great Find Scherf  :aok
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Offline morfiend

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #170 on: July 31, 2009, 05:44:32 PM »
Great stuff Scherf!!

 now if only we can get the MkVI fixed and a glass nose type,well I wouldnt complain if a MkXVIII was added for some "extra" fun value,maybe the Mossie would see more use.




ps: Lets keep this MoP thing quite guys....

   :noid

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #171 on: July 31, 2009, 06:05:23 PM »
Heheheheh:

Oh and don't forget I still think the initial climb on the AH Mossie is well short of what it should be, 2,850 feet/min with a full load.

I've put all my original doccos (except those found on Mike's site) on the AH Wiki.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline morfiend

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #172 on: August 01, 2009, 05:07:55 PM »
Scherf,

 I've always thought the Mossie's OTD speed was 15 to 18 mph too slow and the climb about 300FPM or so to low.

 But for some reason,I thought we didnt have a true Mk6 but more of a mixed bag Mossie.

I seem to recall back then several A/C in game were like that,109G10 comes to mind.Lets hope once HTC sorts out this new update that they upgrade all the old AHI planes to AHII standards.

 The Tiffie was shown some LUV,maybe the Mossie's next. :aok

 Not to Hijack but an Me410 and Mossie package would make things real interesting. :pray

   :salute

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #173 on: August 02, 2009, 01:49:48 AM »
Heya:

Yeah, Me 410 vs Mossie would be interesting, think Mossie would turn tighter, depending on the usual factors of course.

I reckon initial climb is around 400 ft/min short. I can only get about 2,400 - 2,500 instead of 2,850.

 :salute
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline morfiend

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #174 on: August 02, 2009, 09:32:48 PM »
Well I wont argue with your climb figure,thats for sure,I was only estimating in both climb and speed.

 I've had several different figures for both these,dependant on source. I'm sure you know what I mean Scherf!

 I wasnt thinking Mossie vs 410 but now that you brought it up.... :devil

 There's some LW reports I'll be sorting through to find just this sort duel.Thats when I find the time!

   :salute

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #175 on: August 02, 2009, 09:52:52 PM »
The reports I have are all rather one-sided....

 :salute
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline moot

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #176 on: August 03, 2009, 06:58:33 AM »
Just give us MK103s and we'll take care of that  :devil
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Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #177 on: August 03, 2009, 07:18:47 AM »
Heheheh.

Don't know if the Mossies ever encountered the ZG 76 lads - think I only have references for KG 2, KG 51 and one (two?) of the recce units.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline moot

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #178 on: August 03, 2009, 07:47:59 AM »
If you ever find a hint of why that one (at least one anyway) pilot removed the gunner position and equipment from his 410, or how it affected the plane, I'm all ears :)
/hijack
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #179 on: August 03, 2009, 08:05:21 AM »
Removing the defensive gun barbettes was done on a number of versions, most notably the high-altitude bomber interceptor which needed the space for the GM-1 bottles.
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