Author Topic: mosquito fans  (Read 26469 times)

Offline bozon

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2009, 08:31:51 AM »
One has to wonder how and why HTC does certain things, ESPECIALLY since they dont seem to explain topics such as the Mossie.  I keep hearing that they adjust flight models when concrete and legit data is presented but yet AH2's Mossie has been shown time and time again to be questionable (even with the initial corrections and they STILL have not addressed the issue.

Why do they use a retarded Mossie (baffles/speed/handling/etc)?  Why do they not make public statements or sticky threads in which they reply to justify their reasonings?  It is one thing to berate and points fingers at them, but when one can point a finger at official D.H. info and ask "Why" to them, there is no response.  So in turn.. threads like this one keep coming up.
HTC have their own priorities and considerations. What seems logical and simple to you may look different to them, given the larger picture. HTC does tend to fix flight models, but sometimes it takes a long long time as it falls down the priority ladder.

Demanding them to fix something usually does not work. I think it even causes an opposite reaction of resentment instead of sympathy. I certainly am in no position to make any demands. I am currently not a paying customer due to, lets call it "lack of FPS". I would like to return in the near future so I still care very much about the game. If you want something changed, a better course of action is to keep it on the surface, but without shoving it into their faces. This way, when they re-prioritize their tasks or take new decisions, your issue is not forgotten. If you managed to provide a lot of the needed data, it may even help to move the issue closer on the work schedule due to less required man-hours on their side.

For the mosquito, since its problems are not game breakers by any means (the arenas will not implode because of the missing 5-10 mph and anemic elevators), it will likely see no updates of any sort until the plane 3D model gets re-done or some system wide change happens that requires checking every model. When this about to happen, it would be good if mosquito threads are still popping up from time to time. Not whine threads, but any mosquito thread will do as a reminder that people want to see this fixed: pretty pictures threads, mosquito guides, posted videos and ahf files, historical documents postings and discussion are particularly good, etc etc. Before the previous center of gravity fix (that created a new problem - the rubber band elevator control) I tried to make sure that there will always be a mosquito thread in one of the major forums (Help, General discussion, Aircraft & Vehicles, wishlist ocasionally) on the first page. This is a one event statistics, but it worked - so this works 100% of the time :) Even if it doesn't work and in the meantime, we can certainly enjoy such threads.

Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2009, 09:39:04 AM »
I just wish we flew them more. Once upon a time there was always Rook squadrons, or even put together missions, flying Mossies all the time. For the life of me I dont know why we quit doing it. Missions consisting of Mossies, typhoons, Temps, Spits, are not only lethal but also very fast.

The Mossie is, IMOHO, the best strike aircraft in the game.

The Mossie cant make full use of its best asset: speed.  Yeah, it is faster that the BF110G-2, but marginally so.  As far as being the "best" strike aircraft in the game I think many will debate that the Bf110G-2 outshines the Mossie Mk 6 when it comes to hammering the ground.  The only two advantages I see for the Mossie is its ability to carry 4/500lb bombs (4 dead tanks via ord) vs the Bf110G-2's ability to carry 2/500kg bombs and 4/50kg bombs (3 dead tanks via ord), and the Mossie's ability to extend and hold E.  Otherwise the 110's dual 30mm, dual 20mm (or quad 20mm), is an awesome force.

FWIW, since I am not the type of player to always have the "best" in the air I take up the Mossie unless I am directed or inclined by sqd mates to take up the 110.  It takes the 110G-2 two passes to take down a hanger (gun package only) and ditto for a Mossie (rockets and guns).  The more seasoned player can do more with the Mossie (take down a hanger in 2 passes w/ rockets and guns, have 2 bombs for gv's, AND be able to fend off fighters), but the 110G-2 is a very easy aircraft that gets the hanger busting job done with minimal efforts.       
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2009, 08:09:29 PM »
I wonder where the AH 22,221 lbs comes from?

Found a Miniistry of Aircraft Production data sheet which gives the Maximum weight of an FB.VI as 22,258 with full internal fuel AND with 4x500-lb bombs. Same sheet gives initial climb on Merlin 25s +18 boost as 2,850 ft./min (it specifies that's with the bombs still aboard), top speed at 19,496 lb as 370 with wing bombs attached, 380 without, but no doubt with the bomb carriers still attached. Sharp & Bowyer say wing bombs reduced speed by 15 mph, so if one gains 10 mph by dropping the bombs, one is left with a 5 mph drop in speed due to the bomb carriers, same loss as incurred by the drop tanks.

Matches up neatly with the dH results of 384 top speed.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 08:56:44 PM by Scherf »
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2009, 10:17:38 PM »
Now that I checked in the game offline, AH mosquito obtains only 14lb/sqi boost WITH WEP.

Different MAP data sheet gives +14 WEP as a Merlin 23. Sharp & Bowyer specify Merlin 25s were on the FB.VIs issued to 418 Sqn Sqns in mid-43.

In other words gimme my fargin Mossie!

 :furious
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline mechanic

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2009, 10:41:24 PM »
and now, a quick word from our sponser...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDYAtdB6eHQ&feature=channel_page

thank you, carry on!
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Karnak

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2009, 11:24:00 PM »
Different MAP data sheet gives +14 WEP as a Merlin 23. Sharp & Bowyer specify Merlin 25s were on the FB.VIs issued to 418 Sqn Sqns in mid-43.

In other words gimme my fargin Mossie!

 :furious
The performance of the Mossie VI in AH matches the Merlin 25.  The gauges match the Merlin 23.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2009, 12:26:34 AM »
and now, a quick word from our sponser...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDYAtdB6eHQ&feature=channel_page

thank you, carry on!

Now THAT's what I'm talkin' 'bout!
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline bozon

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2009, 03:33:58 AM »
Found a Miniistry of Aircraft Production data sheet which gives the Maximum weight of an FB.VI as 22,258 with full internal fuel AND with 4x500-lb bombs.
Odd. I'll try to find some other sources to cross check.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2009, 05:24:33 AM »
Had a look at my original FB.VI CG chart (holy of holies) - it says 22,258 is all-up weight with 4x500s, full internal fuel AND desert gear!

At least it matches up with the MAP document.

More to the point, the MAP Merlin 25 docco says the Mossie climbs at 2,850 feet / min with full fuel and bombs (no mention made of desert gear), which is rather more than what the AHwiki chart shows.

Are the AHwiki charts accurate?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 05:31:56 AM by Scherf »
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2009, 08:18:07 AM »
I'm loving this thread...  :D

...even more evidence seems to be creeping out of the woodwork.  I hope HTC has nightmares.   ;)
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline bozon

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2009, 12:04:21 PM »
Had a look at my original FB.VI CG chart (holy of holies) - it says 22,258 is all-up weight with 4x500s, full internal fuel AND desert gear!

All websites that I found till now (example: http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avmoss1.html#m7, and http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/dehamosqbfn.html#dehamosqbfn1) give an empty weight of 14,300 lbs.

In game, an empty mosquito - 0 fuel and no ammo weights 16,474 lbs. This is about 2000 lbs over the given empty weight - could this be the 4*500s taken to be as part of the plane? On the other hand, loading it with 4*500, 100% fuel and the small (large) ammo load gives 22,221 (22354) lbs, so this seems about right (The AH empty weight + 622 lbs (max)ammo + 542 gal * 6 lbs/gal + 2000lbs bombs). Empty weight may not include things like oil, the pilots and sandwiches for the road that add up to 2000 lbs?

Anyone cares to test the max speed at 6000 feet with this loadout? and without the bombs?
Anyway, this means that the AH mosquito performance chart (22,221 lbs) is for a mosquito with 100% fuel, the small ammo load and 4 500 bombs. Not only this means weight, two of these bombs are on the wings and add much more drag.

Anyone cares to test the max speed at 6000 feet with this loadout? and also without the bombs?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 12:14:07 PM by bozon »
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Scherf

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2009, 03:13:29 PM »
I don't want 'em to have nightmares, it's not about that.

I guess I should post some of the stuff I've been referring to. Might try to upload to the AHwiki site for the Mossie.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2009, 08:42:01 PM »
All websites that I found till now (example: http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avmoss1.html#m7, and http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/dehamosqbfn.html#dehamosqbfn1) give an empty weight of 14,300 lbs.

In game, an empty mosquito - 0 fuel and no ammo weights 16,474 lbs. This is about 2000 lbs over the given empty weight - could this be the 4*500s taken to be as part of the plane? On the other hand, loading it with 4*500, 100% fuel and the small (large) ammo load gives 22,221 (22354) lbs, so this seems about right (The AH empty weight + 622 lbs (max)ammo + 542 gal * 6 lbs/gal + 2000lbs bombs). Empty weight may not include things like oil, the pilots and sandwiches for the road that add up to 2000 lbs?

Anyone cares to test the max speed at 6000 feet with this loadout? and without the bombs?
Anyway, this means that the AH mosquito performance chart (22,221 lbs) is for a mosquito with 100% fuel, the small ammo load and 4 500 bombs. Not only this means weight, two of these bombs are on the wings and add much more drag.

Anyone cares to test the max speed at 6000 feet with this loadout? and also without the bombs?

I will test it... it wontbe until tomorrow when I have time, but I'll get the job done.   :)   Film and all.

EDIT: To clarify, we need to have tested the Mossie at 6000ft w/ %100 fuel, small ammo package for guns, and both w/ and w/o  the four 500lb bombs?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 10:35:25 PM by SmokinLoon »
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2009, 01:11:50 AM »
I was able to keep my eye open with some tape and so I went ahead and performed the test.  I hope I did what was being asked, I wasnt sure about the specifics.

Here are the constants: I started at 10k from A22 in the TA, dove to 6k and cut throttle until I was appx 355mph and then went full throttle with no WEP.  I always had %100 fuel and the large ammo loadout.  I used auto pilot.  When fuel was at 520 gal, I took the speed readings.  The one thing I forgot to do was record weight.

Variables and speed results:
NO ORD: 353mph
2/500lb on wings: 343mph
2/250lb on wings: 345mph
2/500lb internal: 352mph
4/500lb bombs: 341mph
2/500lb internal w/ 8 rockets on wings: 345mph

I was surprised at the speed readings for the rockets.  Those 8 rockets along with the racks are not as aerodynamic as either the two 250 or 500lb bombs.  While lighter in weight by roughly 400lbs total, they have to create one heck of a disturbance in the Force... er I mean air flow.

 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 01:18:28 AM by SmokinLoon »
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline bozon

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Re: mosquito fans
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2009, 04:36:17 AM »
I tested this as well.

At 22,221 lbs weight (100%+4*500lbs+small ammo load) - similar to the weight indicated on the HTC speed chart, at 6k:
341 - no wep
355 - WEP

Without the bombs (weight 20,221):
353 - no wep
367 - WEP.

It seems like the weight indicated on the HTC chart is wrong. It should be 20,221.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs