mosquito fans

[bozon]

And that's one of the P-47's deadliest moves against unwary opponents. Dumping E and turning around faster than most would believe possible. E retention is an advantage in an E fight. In a turn/stall fight it is arguably a disadvantage because you can't slow down to your best corner speed faster than your opponent.

It has next to nothing to do with corner speed. The advantage of quick slowdown is reduction of the turning radius. This is a geometric effect and has little to do with the actual turning rates, which is why E-fighters use it so well. It is typically used at speeds where all planes can pull the same G loads, hence similar turn rates, so it matters even less. If you control the fight geometry, turn rates matter little, at least until the fighter with better sustained turning and/or radius gains the control back and can change it. Once you managed to place yourself inside the other's circle, his superior turning rate will not help and he has to either slow down to change his circle, or go out of plane so your circles are no longer on the same plane. Dont think two co-centric circles, imagine two circles with displaced center and different radius. At this stage it is not a turn fight since the E fighter will not be doing full circles, not even 180 - he will reverse/roll and the general pattern of the fight will be twisting along a linear path.

[Die Hard]

If both aircraft are able to pull the same G then the slowest one will have the best turn rate in degrees per second and the smallest turning circle. Everything else being equal, the plane that can dump speed the fastest will turn inside the other. Corner speed is the slowest speed where the aircraft is still able to achieve maximum G.

Aircraft traveling at the same speed and pulling the same G will have the same rate of turn and same turn radius. Doesn't matter if it is a Tiger Moth or the Spruce Goose.


In general terms:

Turn Rate = G/Velocity

Turn Radius = Velocity/turn rate.

At 200 mph a plane will have twice the turn rate and a quarter of the turn radius of the same plane at 400 mph, assuming it pulls the same G at both speeds.

Above corner velocity all aircraft are equal in turning performance assuming same speed and G limits. If maximum achievable G is equal then the only variable that determines turn rate and radius is velocity.

[bozon]

Above corner velocity all aircraft are equal in turning performance assuming same speed and G limits. If maximum achievable G is equal then the only variable that determines turn rate and radius is velocity.

I boldfaced the important part. If your plane looses E fast, you will slow down right past your corner speed and then your G load is lift limited instead of structure/pilot limited. This happens so fast that the little increase in turn-rate does not have enough time to build into any significant angle difference, hence giving you no real advantage. The turn radius on the other hand does not require a long integration time to make a difference. Since the speed is high, the absolute distance between the diverging flight paths which are no longer on the same circle increase quickly. It only takes a small relative position change to make it hard, or even impossible for the plane with larger radius to point ahead of you (when defending), or change your angle advantage (when pursuing).

This is the famous "geometry cheat" or the "it is impossible your P47 out turned my spitfire, HAXOR!!!". With instantly reduced much smaller turning radius you can make a 90 degree turn and point to where the other guy will be after a 180 degree turn. He out-turned you by 90 degrees (twice your turn rate) and still ends up infront of your guns. This is what "cutting the corner" means.

[Die Hard]

I boldfaced the important part. If your plane looses E fast, you will slow down right past your corner speed...

Nonsense. The corner velocity of most WWII fighters is around 250 mph. The plane that slows down faster will gain the initial positional advantage.

[bozon]

Is this a vertical or horizontal drawing? In the vertical you will cross the corner speed even faster.

In any case, your drawing demonstrates my point. The blue plane gets the shot opportunity because his circle is smaller, not because he pulled almost twice the red's angles. The latter just changes where he will get his shot, not if. Even if blue was turning so slowly that he would only make it 2/3 of the way to where the first shot opportunity is indicated (~120 deg turn), by the time that red has made it to the top (~210 deg turn), he would still get his shot. Given a G load, the radius goes like the square of the speed, while the turn rate is inverse, but proportional to the speed. The radius changes much more dramatically when the speed drops and continues to shrink even past corner speed.

[Die Hard]

Vertical. If maximum achievable G is equal then the only variable that determines turn rate and radius is velocity. Turn rate and turn radius are mathematically interlocked at same G; if you half the rate you quadruple the radius. If two aircraft merge head on at the same speed and both pull up into a half-loop at 6 G's, the plane with the least E retention will turn inside the other like in the illustration I posted earlier. That's why throttle control is very important in a head on merge; cut power pull half-loop, full power to stay near corner speed for the second half loop. If you're lucky or good (or both) you get two shot opportunities, and at worst you end up on the enemy's six. However he will have more E coming down, but you will have two shot opportunities and the positional advantage.

The old F6 duel between Wadke and Morph is a textbook example of superior throttle management and dynamic use of turn rate and radius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V85wiixIePk

Too bad the sound was removed.

[bozon]

Very good fight, but again I see the piloted plane flying slower and pulling a lot less angles than its opponent. The other plane is practically flying circles around the much slower and wallowing F6 that sits inside his turn radius.

I see this discussion is going no where.

Anyway, back to Mosquito issues:
I got my hands on a like-new copy of "Terror in the starboard seat" by Dave McIntosh. Half way through it and it is excellent.

[Die Hard]

Very good fight, but again I see the piloted plane flying slower and pulling a lot less angles than its opponent. The other plane is practically flying circles around the much slower and wallowing F6 that sits inside his turn radius.

The whole point of turn fighting is to get inside your opponent's turning circle. That's where the shot opportunities are and your opponent is forced to keep turning outside you or present his six. Morph clearly had the most shot opportunities in that fight... and won.

[bozon]

Been a while, so it is time for some more Mosquito fan fun.

Recently I was doing some reading about the exploits of coastal command "Banff wing". The mosquito as a fighter was mostly used as a night fighter. Low alt day raids by Mosquito fighters were surprise attacks that prayed on unsuspecting flying or ground targets and rarely stayed to dogfight. However, coastal command had quite a few "massive" day missions that ran into 109/190 interceptors and classic WWII dogfighting action followed. The mossies were doing pretty well, especially considering that they were the "defenders" and that dogfighting is not #1 on the mossie pilots training schedule.

This website has a brief description of all sorties flown by the Banff strike wing:
http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/sorties.html

Starts slow and really picks up pace on December 1944. Here are two of the most epic engagements with 109s and 190s. The second even includes a Tse-Tse mosquito firing the 57mm in air to air engagements (also reported in other engagements, but I don't think it hit anything):

December 26 1944.

On December 26, 1944 a shipping strike was laid on into Leirvik Norway following a sighting of shipping in the harbour by outrider aircraft of Norwegian Squadron 333 Outrider. F333 reported {A}2 Merchant Vessels stationary on east side of the harbour. Another MV was reported close in to the north side of the harbour.. Four aircraft of 143 Squadron piloted by Flight Lt. Brown, Flight Sgt. Smooleners, P.O. Symons and Flying/Officer Norman Smith, .attacked the ships.

"F" F/L Browne attacked the ships [A} firing Rockets in pairs, scoring 2 dry hits [above water line] and 4 wet hits [ below water line]. P/O Symons attacked MV [A] with salvoes of rockets scoring 2 dry hits and 6 wet hits. Flak was reported from the ships and the shore. Vessels A and B were left in flames and sinking.

On breaking off the attack at 1412, two forces of enemy aircraft were encountered, approximately 12 FW 190's and a mixed force of 12 - 109's were seen approaching from the south five to ten miles away. The Banff Wing were in loose formation after the attack on the ships. F/O Smith made a head on attack on the ME 109's firing a two to three second canon burst from six hundred to seven hundred yards. Smith was then attacked by two ME 109's, which opened fire from one thousand yards. Smith turned steeply to starboard and gave a three second burst at two hundred yards with canon and machine gun and headed for the coast of Norway. P/O Symons attacked an FW 190 at six hundred yards height one thousand feet with MG, all canon ammunition having been expended during attack on shipping. He continued to fire down to three hundred yards when he overshot the E/A. The E/A climbed to make a second attack but lost speed presumably due to damage received from Symons primary attack. Symons made a second attack but then was head on to the concentration of the enemy aircraft. Heavy strikes were estimated to have hit the first E/A and one E/A was seen on fire but it was impossible to state that this was the E/A that "Y" had attacked. One aircraft of 235 Squadron failed to return and one E/A was destroyed and one E/A was seen to be on fire.

January 11 1945.

Mixed strike force of fourteen Mosquito’s from Banff and eighteen Beaufighters from Dallachy flew an armed strike to Flekkefjord to attack shipping reported there. Whilst preparing for the strike they were intercepted from the North by approx. six ME 109s and FW 190s, while at the same time at Lister airfield a similar group of fighters took off and attacked the formation from the South. Luring the engagement various dog fights ensued which finished when the enemy fighters climbed into cloud cover. Three enemy fighters were seen to be shot down, Flight Lieutenant M. Russel DFC, and another Mosquito crew sharing a claim in destroying a ME 109. A further German fighter was claimed as a probable. The strike wing lost two aircraft, a Beaufighter and Mosquito "M" of 143 squadron, which did not return from the strike although it was ‘not seen to be shot down’.The crew of this plane were; Flight Sergeant P.C.L. Smoolenaers (Belgium) and his navigator Flight Sergeant W.W. Harris (RAAF) both reported missing. This was one of the rare occasions when, the six pounder ‘Molins gun’, of the MK XVIII (Tsetse) Mosquito’s belonging to 248 squadron, was fired in air—to—air combat, normally it was used for anti—shinning strikes.

[Angus]

Wow, quite some tales there!
Anyway "Flekkefjord" is a place in S-Norway where I once passed through. I recall the name, for I was ill from heavy drinking the night before, and had to stop there to throw up.
People of Flekkefjord: please forgive me for leaving that mess in front of the local supermarket 

[Scherf]

Not sure if this has been posted before - Coastal Command raid film, think it's Nordgulen.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=23542

Typical commentary of the period, lots of "giving the Hun a jolly good thrashing." No wonder Dad left the U.K.

Mossie in opening shot has STUB EXHAUSTS FOR DAYLIGHT OPERATIONS, though his tailwheel has malfunctioned.

My little daughter insists I post this fellow: ->

[RTHolmes]

This was one of the rare occasions when, the six pounder ‘Molins gun’, of the MK XVIII (Tsetse) Mosquito’s belonging to 248 squadron, was fired in air—to—air combat, normally it was used for anti—shinning strikes.

molins kill

[Scherf]

molins kill

There may have been one other: 10 March 1944, 248 Squadron got into a dogfight with Ju 88s. One of the Tsetse pilots fired four shells at a Ju 88 and claimed to have seen his target's port engines torn from its mountings, the unfortunate 88 then spinning down into the sea. Other 248 Squadron pilots claimed a further two Ju 88s destroyed and a probable, however Chris Goss says only one Ju 88 was lost.