Author Topic: Ki-84  (Read 5774 times)

Offline 1Boner

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2009, 04:26:35 PM »
The 30mm version never saw service.  Do not use Il-2 as a source of information.  They add all sorts of "what if" versions of aircraft to that.


Never?

Where did you find that tidbit of information?

I've been looking around for awhile to find production # on specific versions of the KI-84 and can find none.

While I'll agree that I did find inferences that the "C" model was produced in the lowest #, I still found nothing that stated it never saw service.
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #76 on: May 29, 2009, 04:44:43 PM »
The 30mm version never saw service.  Do not use Il-2 as a source of information.  They add all sorts of "what if" versions of aircraft to that.

The Ki-84-Ic never saw service? 



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #77 on: May 29, 2009, 05:33:40 PM »
The Ki-84-Ic never saw service? 



ack-ack
Nope.  Less than 10 built.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #78 on: May 29, 2009, 05:59:34 PM »
Thought 94 were built with an unknown number of I's and II's that were slated to go under conversion?


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #79 on: May 29, 2009, 06:22:00 PM »
Thought 94 were built with an unknown number of I's and II's that were slated to go under conversion?


ack-ack
I haven't seen anything suggestion that many were made.  I'd love to see your sourcing on that.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #80 on: May 29, 2009, 08:59:12 PM »
Those complaining about the Ki-84 not having US-test-specs should realize that as-is it can still chase down most of the planeset (350mph on the deck!) and it climbs over 4000fpm up past 6k.

The ONLY flaw this plane has in-game is the shedding of parts (which, if we're going to do, let's start with zekes and other weaker planes as well!).

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2009, 03:32:23 AM »
And yet they refused to add the F4U-4....

 :noid

They "refuse" to add any new American planes because Boeing threatened to sue them if they didn't pay for using their "intellectual property". Instead they just stopped adding planes that Boeing now owns the rights to. I wonder if HTC has to pay Boeing for simulating the Pony?
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2009, 05:24:36 AM »
They "refuse" to add any new American planes because Boeing threatened to sue them if they didn't pay for using their "intellectual property". Instead they just stopped adding planes that Boeing now owns the rights to. I wonder if HTC has to pay Boeing for simulating the Pony?
Somebody should really challenge that kind of crap in the courts.  These aircraft are of no value except for their historical signficance, a history we all share.  I don't think it is proper for any company to claim to own  our history like that, particularly when they showed no interest in doing anything with their "property" for so long and until others did find something to do with it.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Kazaa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2009, 06:30:11 AM »
They "refuse" to add any new American planes because Boeing threatened to sue them if they didn't pay for using their "intellectual property". Instead they just stopped adding planes that Boeing now owns the rights to. I wonder if HTC has to pay Boeing for simulating the Pony?

That's a joke, American greed at it's best...

Are we referring to HTC "refusing" to add any new American A/C.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 06:31:43 AM by Kazaa »



"If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."

Offline pipz

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4899
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2009, 06:51:03 AM »
The same thing has been going on with plastic models.Our local hobby shop had news paper articles posted about this.The last I heard the court ruled it was a goverment contract that was full filled and no royalty needed to be paid.I could ask my buddy that works there what has been going on with the situation lately.

Speaking of Greed...Hey Kaz hows it going with Parliment?Were they not putting everything imagineable on theyre expense account including sex tapes also someone having theyre "moat" dredged and what have ya.Charging it all to the tax payers?Smashing Wat!Rite! :aok

Pipz




Silence tells me secretly everything.
                                                                     
Montreal! Free the Pitt Bulls!!!!!

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2009, 09:01:41 AM »
Those complaining about the Ki-84 not having US-test-specs should realize that as-is it can still chase down most of the planeset (350mph on the deck!) and it climbs over 4000fpm up past 6k.

The ONLY flaw this plane has in-game is the shedding of parts (which, if we're going to do, let's start with zekes and other weaker planes as well!).

Max speed on the deck is the same as the P-38J/L: 344 mph. However, the Ki-84 only has WEP in bursts of 90 seconds, meaning that it cannot sustain that speed constantly. Thus, it isn't going to keep up with a P-38J over 5 minutes.

As to "shedding of parts", the limitation is related to Indicated Air Speed. Offline, I've had the Ki-84 up to 556 mph TAS without breaking anything. You don't want to exceed about 490 mph IAS at any altitude. The image below shows 475 IAS at 10,300 feet. This is the speed where the Ki-84 begins to buffet, but is still quite controllable. Just remember to trim manually for high speeds. Obviously, the higher you are, the less risk of aero-loading the airplane to failure. The combination of g loading and aerodynamic loading is the usual culprit in breaking the Hayate. I refer to this equation as stupid2.




My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 09:15:23 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2009, 09:33:30 AM »
Somebody should really challenge that kind of crap in the courts.  These aircraft are of no value except for their historical signficance, a history we all share.  I don't think it is proper for any company to claim to own  our history like that, particularly when they showed no interest in doing anything with their "property" for so long and until others did find something to do with it.

It's the same with car games and shooters too; car/weapon game models based on real cars/weapons has to be "licensed" by the manufacturer.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2009, 10:03:36 AM »
It's the same with car games and shooters too; car/weapon game models based on real cars/weapons has to be "licensed" by the manufacturer.

This does not apply to any material or equipment contracted for and manufactured for the use of the United States Government. Moreover, some courts have also ruled that there must be evidence that the manufacturer suffers financial loss. Back in the 1930s and 40's virtually all government contracts for military hardware stipulated that the government owned the design, tooling and engineering drawings. Once declared obsolescent and or declassified, these rights transferred to the public domain.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2009, 05:05:33 PM »
When did that court ruling take place? Sounds wonderful if it is fact.

Here's the Boeing intellectual property licensing contract (notice the list of aircraft it covers):


effective as of ______________
is entered into by and between Boeing Management Company (hereinafter
referred to as "Licensor") having an office and place of business in
Seal Beach, California and (hereinafter referred to as "Licensee")
having an office and place of business in , California.

RECITALS

WHEREAS Licensor is the owner of certain valuable trademarks which it
has used and continues to use on goods including aircraft and
aircraft parts, models of aircraft, and a wide variety of other
items,

WHEREAS Licensor is the owner of certain drawings, technical
information and expertise, images, and/or artwork of interest to
Licensee and has advised and/or may in the future advise Licensee
regarding the application of Boeing trademarks, images, and artwork
to Licensee's products, and

WHEREAS Licensee desires to utilize certain of Licensor's trade
names, trademarks, drawings, technical information and expertise,
advice, images, and/or artwork upon and in connection with the
design, manufacture, sale, and distribution of Licensee's products as
hereinafter described;

AGREEMENTS

NOW THEREFORE, in consideration of the premises, benefits, and mutual
covenants herein contained, and other good and valuable
consideration, the parties hereby agree as follows:

1. GRANT OF LICENSE.

a. Trademarks. Subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter
set forth, Licensor hereby grants to Licensee, and Licensee hereby
accepts, a nonexclusive, nontransferable license to use the
trademarks listed in Attachment A to this Agreement and incorporated
herein by reference (hereinafter referred to as "Licensed Marks")
upon, and in connection with the packaging, distribution,
advertising, promotion, and sale of, Articles as hereinafter defined.

b. Other Intellectual Property. Subject to the terms and
conditions hereinafter set forth, Licensor hereby grants to Licensee,
and Licensee hereby accepts, a nonexclusive, nontransferable license
to use, for the sole purpose of assisting Licensee in the design,
manufacture, sale, and/or distribution of Articles under this
Agreement, any artwork, drawings, technical information, know-how,
and advice provided or otherwise made available to Licensee in
accordance with section 2. of this Agreement together with a
nonexclusive license under any copyrights and/or designs owned by
Licensor therein (hereinafter referred to as "Other Intellectual
Property").

c. Articles. The license hereby granted extends only (i) to the
use of Licensed Marks on products listed in the Approval Log referred
to in subsection 1.d. below (hereinafter called "Articles") and in
connection with the packaging, distribution, advertising, promotion,
and sale thereof and (ii) to the use of Other Intellectual Property
in connection with Articles.

d. Approval Log. The approval log (hereinafter referred to as
the "Approval Log") set forth as Attachment B to this Agreement and
incorporated herein by reference lists all of the Articles that have
been reviewed and approved by Licensor, and this Agreement will be
revised periodically by Licensor in writing to update Attachment B
and maintain a current Approval Log as additional Articles are
approved. Licensee will not sell, offer for sale, or in any way
distribute any Article not listed in the then-current Approval Log.

e. Territory. The territory of the license hereby granted is
worldwide.

f. Distribution Channels. In recognition of the need to focus
Licensee's sales efforts on those distribution channels for which
Licensee has, or is developing expertise, Licensee agrees to sell the
Articles only through the distribution channels indicated in
Attachment C to this Agreement.

Term. The term of this Agreement and the license hereby granted will
begin on the effective date hereinabove set forth and, except as
provided in section 7 – Cancellation, will remain in full force and
effect thereafter unless and until terminated by written notice from
either party to the other. Any notice of termination given pursuant
to this section 1g. will specify the effective date of the
termination, provided such date shall be not less than ninety (90)
days from the date of the termination notice.

Pricing. Nothing contained in this Agreement shall be deemed to
imply any restriction on Licensee's freedom or that of its customers
to set prices for the Articles as Licensee or its customers
reasonably deem advisable to maintain a competitive position in the
marketplace.

2. OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.

Subject to the terms and conditions of this section, Licensor has
provided, and/or may from time to time and within Licensor's sole and
absolute discretion provide, to Licensee certain items of Other
Intellectual Property. All Other Intellectual Property will be used
by Licensee only in accordance with subsection 1.b. of this Agreement
or for such other purposes as may be specifically authorized by
Licensor in writing.

From time to time, Licensee may submit a request to obtain Other
Intellectual Property from Licensor. Upon receipt of such request,
Licensor will review and evaluate the request. At its sole and
absolute discretion, Licensor will respond to the request by either:
(i) providing an offer that contains (a) a description of the Other
Intellectual Property, (b) a fee (in addition to any royalty amounts
specified in section 4 – Royalties and Licensee Fees), (c) a delivery
schedule, and (d) any other applicable terms and conditions; or (ii)
advising Licensee of Licensor's denial of such request or inability
to provide such Other Intellectual Property.

All Other Intellectual Property, and any copies of such Other
Intellectual Property, are exclusively owned by and reserved to
Licensor. Licensee will preserve and protect all Other Intellectual
Property in confidence and will not use, copy, or disclose, nor
permit any of its personnel to use, copy, or disclose the same for
any purpose that is not specifically authorized under this
Agreement. The individual copies of all Other Intellectual Property
are provided to Licensee subject to copyrights therein, and all such
copyrights are retained by Licensor or, in some cases, by third
parties. Licensee is authorized to make copies of Other Intellectual
Property (except for such materials bearing copyright legend of a
third party), provided, however, Licensee preserves any restrictive
legends and proprietary notices on all copies.

As specified under this section and upon giving prior written notice
to Licensor, Licensee is authorized to provide and disclose Other
Intellectual Property to a third party that is appointed by Licensee
to perform work on or related to the design, manufacture, sale,
and/or distribution of Articles under this Agreement (hereinafter
referred to as "Contractor"). Before providing Other Intellectual
Property to a Contractor of Licensee, Licensee will obtain a written
agreement from Contractor (i) to use the Other Intellectual Property
only on behalf of Licensee, (ii) to be bound by all the restrictions
and limitations of this section, and (iii) that Licensor is an
intended third-party beneficiary under such agreement. Licensee
agrees to provide copies of all such written agreements to Licensor,
and to be liable to Licensor for any breach of those agreements by
Contractor. A form of agreement, acceptable to Licensor, is attached
as Attachment E.

Upon cancellation or termination of this Agreement, Licensee will not
use or cause to be used any Other Intellectual Property. Within ten
(10) days of written notice to Licensee by Licensor, and in
accordance with the direction received by Licensor, Licensee will
either (i) return all copies of the Other Intellectual Property
including partial copies or modifications to Licensor postage
prepaid, or (ii) certify to Licensor, by a duly authorized officer of
Licensee, that all copies of the Other Intellectual Property
including partial copies or modifications have been destroyed.

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Ki-84
« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2009, 05:06:23 PM »
3. USE OF LICENSED MARKS.

a. Licensee agrees to use Licensed Marks only in a manner and
form approved by Licensor. Licensee will be responsible for
obtaining Licensor's prior written approval of the manner and form of
any such trademark usage and any change in such usage. As and when
appropriate, Licensed Marks, when used by Licensee, will be marked
with a ® or Ô in accordance with Attachment A.

Licensee agrees that any application or use of the Licensed Marks by
Licensee on any Articles, or upon any packaging or advertising of
such Articles, will be in a form approved by Licensor.

Licensee agrees not to use, in conjunction with the Licensed Marks,
any of Licensee's trade names or trademarks, or any third party's
trade names or trademarks, on any packaging, advertising, promotion,
or Article without the express written consent of Licensor.

Licensee agrees not to use any Licensed Marks, or any trademark
incorporating all or any part of a Licensed Mark, on any business
sign, business cards, stationery or forms.

e. Licensee hereby acknowledges Licensor's present and future
ownership rights in the Licensed Marks and agrees that any and all
use of Licensed Marks by Licensee will be on behalf of Licensor and
will accrue solely to the benefit of Licensor. Licensee agrees not
to challenge or contest Licensor's ownership of the Licensed Marks
and Other Intellectual Property. Licensee further agrees that it
will not use Licensed Marks as part of Licensee's own trademarks or
trade names, nor on or in connection with Articles carrying any third-
party trademarks or trade names, and Licensee will retain no right to
use Licensed Marks after the termination or cancellation of this
Agreement.

f. Licensee agrees that all Articles under this Agreement will
meet Licensor's quality standards; and Licensee will periodically, at
Licensor's request and Licensee's expense, make samples of Articles,
packaging for Articles, and advertising copy and promotional
materials, including, but not limited to, catalogs and web pages,
relating to Articles available to Licensor for inspection. Licensee
warrants to Licensor that all Articles, prior to distribution or
sale, shall conform in materials and specifications to the
corresponding samples reviewed and approved by Licensor.

g. It is agreed that Licensor will, in all cases, be the sole
judge in determining the acceptability of both the quality of
Articles and the manner and form of trademark usage in connection
therewith, and Licensee agrees not to use any Licensed Marks or sell
any Articles in connection with Licensed Marks where the quality or
manner and form of usage is not acceptable to Licensor.

4. ROYALTIES AND LICENSE FEES.

a. Initial Fee. Licensee will pay, to Licensor, upon the
execution of this Agreement, a one-time, non-refundable initial fee
of one thousand dollars ($1000.00), which will not be considered an
advanced royalty payment or be applied against any future royalty
obligation.

b. Royalty Fee. For each Article sold by Licensee under this
Agreement which utilizes one or more of the Licensed Marks, either on
the Article itself or in connection with the packaging, distribution,
advertising, promotion, or sale of the Article, and/or which is based
on or subject to any Other Intellectual Property under this
Agreement, Licensee will pay to Licensor a royalty of:

(i) 0% on Articles sold to Licensor, to any related company of
Licensor, or to the United States government,

(ii) 0% on Articles for which a royalty has already been paid by a
licensee of Boeing Management Company who is prior to Licensee in the
distribution chain for the Articles in question, provided that
Licensor has previously confirmed, to Licensee, the prior licensee's
status and that the prior licensee is identified by Licensee in the
relevant royalty report, and

4% on Articles sold to any other customer of Licensee.

In the event the royalties paid to Licensor for use of the Licensed
Marks on Articles during any calendar year, commencing from the date
that Licensor executes this Agreement, fails to aggregate to a
minimum payment of on thousand dollars ($1000.00), Licensee will,
within thirty days after the last calendar quarter of the applicable
calendar year, pay to Licensor such additional sums as may be
necessary to bring the minimum payment for such use of Licensed Marks
up to one thousand dollars ($1000.00).

c. The royalty fee will apply to the net sales price of
Articles, and the term "net sales price" as used herein means
Licensee's invoiced price (exclusive of prepaid freight charges, if
any, included therein and without allowance for cash discounts or
other deductions) of Articles sold to the customer at the next level
of distribution.

d. Articles will be considered sold and the royalty due when the
Articles are first invoiced or delivered or paid for, whichever
occurs first. Suitable adjustments may be made against future
payments due under this Agreement in the event that Articles for
which a royalty payment has already been made to Licensor are
returned to Licensee for credit.

5. PAYMENTS AND REPORTS

a. Royalty payments due hereunder will be made by Licensee to
Licensor within thirty (30) days after the end of each calendar
quarter (hereinafter referred to as the "Payment Deadline") for the
calendar quarter just ended. Calendar quarters, for purposes of this
Agreement, end with the last day of March, June, September, and
December. All payments not received by Licensor on or before the
Payment Deadline will accrue interest on the average daily unpaid
balance, from the date of such Payment Deadline until the payment in
question is actually received by Licensor, at the prime interest rate
as quoted in the Wall Street Journal on the first business day
following the Payment Deadline, plus two percent. Licensee shall
also pay, to Licensor, on demand (i) the amount of any costs
(including attorneys' fees) incurred by Licensor in collecting any
amounts due Licensor under this Agreement and (ii) interest at the
rate specified above if such costs are not received by Licensor
within five days after such demand has been communicated to
Licensee. Licensor will be entitled to apply any amounts paid by
Licensee towards the payment of interest due prior to applying the
amount paid to reduce the amount of royalties due.

b. All payments made hereunder will be in U.S. dollars. When
the royalty payment to Licensor is calculated based on a currency
other than U.S. currency, the payment to Licensor will be calculated
by using the free rate of exchange of such other currency to U.S.
dollars as quoted by Citibank, N.A. for the last business day of the
calendar quarter in which such royalties accrued.

c. Licensee will submit, to Licensor on or before the last day
of the month following the end of each calendar quarter, a written
royalty report in a form substantially in accordance with Attachment
D to this Agreement which is incorporated herein by reference. The
report will set forth in detail the quantity and prices of sales by
Licensee of Articles during the calendar quarter just ended
(including those sales to which a 0% royalty rate applies),a
calculation of the royalty payments due for such period, and the
identification of the countries of which the Articles were sold. If
no sales of Articles were made during the calendar quarter being
reported, then the report will so state.

d. All reports required under this section will be sent by mail,
postage prepaid, to the address shown below:

Boeing Business Services Company
Attention: Trademark Licensing Manager
P.O. Box 3707, M/C 14-84
Seattle, WA 98124-2207

e. Licensee agrees to submit a written forecast to Licensor
along with the royalty report that is owed for the fourth quarter of
each calendar year. Said forecast will provide Licensor with an
estimate of the Articles that are projected to be sold within the
next three (3) calendar years. Licensor will use the forecast
provided for planning purposes only, and such forecast will in no way
obligate Licensee to the forecast provided.

f. Licensee may make quarterly payments to Licensor by check
sent to the address shown below:

Boeing Business Services Company
Accounts Receivable, M/C 1F-31
P.O. Box 3707
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
Reference Number: [ USE LICENSE AGREEMENT NO.]
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi