Author Topic: p-47's kill Tigers  (Read 3248 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2009, 01:07:30 PM »
when i can find the reference where i saw it i will send you the link. but it states the pilots would flip the tanks over with near misses from bombs. the video i showed show that its possible to move a tank and i bet those IED's arent near the powerful  of the 500lb bombs.. the abrams is 63 tons and it must have been tossed 10 -15 feet in the air with ease.

First, the Stryker is a 20 ton vehicle, and not relevant to the discussion.  Second, the M1 clip shows an IED that was buried under the road, and if it follows the typical IED they would use on tanks, its probably 10-20 chained artillery rounds which puts it way past a 500 lb bomb in explosive force, not to mention it was buried.  Putting the explosives underneath changes the characteristics of the blast effect.  Bombs, unless they have delay fuzes, would not penetrate into the ground at all before detonating.  Even with a typical short-delay fuze, they wouldn't penetrate that much.  I've seen Mk83 dusters (duds) that hit and buried themselves, and you still have half the weapon sticking up above ground.  The older 1,000 demo bombs were much less likely to penetrate even that much, since the nose of the weapon was very blunt, not to mention the slower velocity at which it came off the aircraft.

Now, I'm not saying that its impossible that a Tiger may have been flipped by a bomb, but in my experience of watching all 3 major Mk-series bombs (500, 1000, and 2000) dropped on M-48/M-60 hulks, I've never seen one flip the chassis completely over.  Those were with quick fuzes.  Perhaps a 2,000 lb bomb with some sort of delay fuze would have a chance, but it takes a lot of force to flip a 60 ton tank.  I can't explain those photos and didn't try to earlier.  I'm just telling you that given my experience with current stuff, this smells more like one of those WWII myths oft quoted.  So, in a Mythbusters vein, I'll say plausible, but not likely.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2009, 02:05:55 PM »
when i can find the reference where i saw it i will send you the link. but it states the pilots would flip the tanks over with near misses from bombs. the video i showed show that its possible to move a tank and i bet those IED's arent near the powerful  of the 500lb bombs.. the abrams is 63 tons and it must have been tossed 10 -15 feet in the air with ease.

I'm willing to bet those IEDs were larger than 500 pounders, probably a half a dozen artillery shells wired together or 1,000lber.  Also, an IED going off is not the same as a bomb hitting next to a tank. 


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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2009, 02:11:05 PM »
The reference to flipped tanks that I know of are from Operation Goodwood. 

pics from: http://www.saak.nl/panzer2/index.htm






The tanks in question were flipped by bombs alright, but, I would surmise, not by single, 500 or 1000 pound bombs.  Rather, massed bombing by medium and heavy bombers in preparation for the operation.

Quote
The preliminary bombardment by artillery was augmented by a total of 2,077 heavy and medium bombers of the Royal Air Force (RAF) and United States Army Air Force (USAAF), flying in three waves.  The air raid would be the largest bomb raid launched in direct support of a ground attack.

So, it is possible but done by design is highly unlikely.



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Offline hlbly

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2009, 02:19:16 PM »
First, the Stryker is a 20 ton vehicle, and not relevant to the discussion.  Second, the M1 clip shows an IED that was buried under the road, and if it follows the typical IED they would use on tanks, its probably 10-20 chained artillery rounds which puts it way past a 500 lb bomb in explosive force, not to mention it was buried.  Putting the explosives underneath changes the characteristics of the blast effect.  Bombs, unless they have delay fuzes, would not penetrate into the ground at all before detonating.  Even with a typical short-delay fuze, they wouldn't penetrate that much.  I've seen Mk83 dusters (duds) that hit and buried themselves, and you still have half the weapon sticking up above ground.  The older 1,000 demo bombs were much less likely to penetrate even that much, since the nose of the weapon was very blunt, not to mention the slower velocity at which it came off the aircraft.

Now, I'm not saying that its impossible that a Tiger may have been flipped by a bomb, but in my experience of watching all 3 major Mk-series bombs (500, 1000, and 2000) dropped on M-48/M-60 hulks, I've never seen one flip the chassis completely over.  Those were with quick fuzes.  Perhaps a 2,000 lb bomb with some sort of delay fuze would have a chance, but it takes a lot of force to flip a 60 ton tank.  I can't explain those photos and didn't try to earlier.  I'm just telling you that given my experience with current stuff, this smells more like one of those WWII myths oft quoted.  So, in a Mythbusters vein, I'll say plausible, but not likely.
Stoney penetration would have alot to do with soil and bedrock conditions . I wont pretend that I know alot about fuzing and penetration of 500 lbs. bombs . I do however have a wealth of experience on 60mm 81mm and 107mm mortars . Let's run with the 81 (though I prefer my 4duece) fuze settings being much easier . 2 setting on 81 mm HE round quick and delay . We will run with delay since it is germaine to the discussion . Book says you get 6 foot of penetration with a delay fuze setting . I have personally seen where you aint even getting close to that . Generally speaking this takes place on US Army firing ranges such garden spots as Yakima Firing Center , or my favorite graf . Worse penetration I ever saw was at Camp Pendelton Marines can keep that place , I doubt it was going more than 2 feet in the ground there . Best penetration I ever saw was in C. America where it was hitting very deep soft loam . Looked like it was 14 feet there . You can judge by the amount of debris and how high it goes etc .  I didn't look real close but all those flips look like it is soft and wet , and bro I only seen 1 range that was close to that at FT. Lewis . And its the ugliest piece of the PNW there is . I think there are some variables that aren't being considered is what I'm saying . One last thing , I don't have much experience with IED's , thank god . However would you want to spend enough time to bury more than 10 155 HE rounds where datman patrols ? I didn't even look at the clips of the IED's I just cant watch that crap myself , no problem watching the rotorheads ripping up the opfor with their chin guns but I just can't look at IED stuff at all . So I am just kinda asking on the last part of stuff as I don't have the knowledge or experience to debate it . Would like to know what was in the IED that could bounce an M-1 . My personal take on the 47 killing tiger tanks with .50's is not ever . Think we saw something on the outside of a (TD I think) something burn . Could have been anything everyone knows what a lousy house keeper DATMAN is . .

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2009, 03:54:49 PM »
I'm still waiting to hear Zohan explain how a single 500 lb bomb can flip a nearly 70 ton Tiger II.   
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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2009, 05:14:28 PM »
I'm still waiting to hear Zohan explain how a single 500 lb bomb can flip a nearly 70 ton Tiger II.   

He already explained.  He read it somewhere.  Then, he posted pictures of totally unrelated things.  A clever misdirection that failed to work.



 :rofl


wrongway
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 05:42:13 PM by AWwrgwy »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2009, 05:41:39 PM »
He already explained.  He read it somewhere.  They, he posted pictures of totally unrelated things.  A clever misdirection that failed to work.

 :rofl
wrongway

No he hasn't.   We're talking "Tiger I's", then he comes in with Tiger II's, the King Tiger. 
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Offline TheZohan

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2009, 06:49:15 PM »
Baron von Rosen who commanded a company of Tigers was  in Normandy telling about some of his 58-tons tanks being flip-over like miniature toys during the carpet bombings preceding operation GOODWOOD



Offline Stoney

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2009, 07:47:02 PM »
Stoney penetration would have alot to do with soil and bedrock conditions...However would you want to spend enough time to bury more than 10 155 HE rounds where datman patrols?

First point is well taken, and something I had not considered.  Most of my experience comes from the desert, and undoubtedly different soils conditions. Perhaps the soils in France would permit a bomb to really burrow in before it detonated. 

I did some searching to see if I could find pictures but could not.  I've seen some pictures of 10-12 122mm howitzer rounds that were lashed together in a pit and set to go off together.  So, apparently, there are opportunities for them to take the time to set some really deliberate IED's.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2009, 07:49:25 PM »
Baron von Rosen who commanded a company of Tigers was  in Normandy telling about some of his 58-tons tanks being flip-over like miniature toys during the carpet bombings preceding operation GOODWOOD


(Image removed from quote.)

You said Tiger II's.   I want to see a "flipped Tiger II."   
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Offline Wingnutt

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2009, 08:07:28 PM »
Baron von Rosen who commanded a company of Tigers was  in Normandy telling about some of his 58-tons tanks being flip-over like miniature toys during the carpet bombings preceding operation GOODWOOD


(Image removed from quote.)

looking at the underside I see plenty of places for bouncing 50 cal rounds to sneak in and damage the suspension and who knows what else.

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2009, 09:30:04 PM »
looking at the underside I see plenty of places for bouncing 50 cal rounds to sneak in and damage the suspension and who knows what else.

That one was flipped over by an Anti Tank Mine.   Notice the torn steel.   A bomb from the side wouldn't do that. 

I'm still want to see a Tiger II.
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Offline Wingnutt

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2009, 09:32:13 PM »
I dount doubt it,  hard to imagine any bomb blowing BOTH tracks off and flipping it over.

Offline Demetrious

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2009, 10:43:42 PM »
This is rather simple.

The .50 caliber BMG's armor penetration under the best conditions (using AP ammo and at decent angles,) was about 20mm. (This was about the same as most 20mm cannons, simply because cannons were almost always loaded with HE rounds, not AP shells.)

Tanks were and are vulnerable to lower-powered weapons mounted on aircraft that they'd shrug off from the ground simply because the aircraft can access the one part of the tank that is very lightly armoured- the top. Tanks are designed to defend against shots coming from other units on the ground, after all. Thus we consider the tanks top turret and deck armor.

The Panther had 16mm of top armor, and thus was vulnerable to .50 caliber guns. The early-war Tigers started with 25mm of top armor, and this would increase to 40mm by wars end. Thus they were immune to .50 cal fire.

Being able to damage Panthers and Panzers was great, since Panzers alone made up about half the German tank force- not to mention their self-propelled artillery guns and various tank destroyers. But Tigers were, well... Tigers.

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: p-47's kill Tigers
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2009, 11:23:08 PM »
I dount doubt it,  hard to imagine any bomb blowing BOTH tracks off and flipping it over.
That one was flipped over by an Anti Tank Mine.   Notice the torn steel.   A bomb from the side wouldn't do that. 

I'm still want to see a Tiger II.

But see, that's where everybody is getting it wrong.  It was not a-single-bomb that did this.  It was a formation of Heavy Bombers.

Lots and lots of bombs.  All together.  At the same time.  Really big boom.  Imagine it would be an earthquake of bowl shaking proportion.


wrongway
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