Author Topic: RAM is right about the 190A series Weapons .... Sorta (Read 1292 times)

Vermillion · « **on:** February 21, 2001, 12:07:00 PM »

While reading thru the wonderful FW190A8's pilots handbook, that Funked sent me, I found some interesting information.

Lately RAM, has complained about the lack of being able to independently fire the 20mm's, 30mm's, and 13mm MG's, in the FW190A8/R2. Or conversely, fire only 2 or all 4 of the 20mm MG151/20's independently in the standard 190A8.

This also applies from their discussion to the FW190A5, where they wish to be able to independently fire the 20mm MG/FF's from the 20mm MG151/20's, and also from the 7.9mm MG's.

Now I am making the assumption that the 190A5 uses the same arming circuit and weapons control panel that the 190A8 series uses.

But RAM is right when he said that HTC has messed up the way that the "primary" and "secondary" weapons banks are setup in Aces High. Well... sorta

Unless I am misunderstanding RAM, he is just as wrong.

According to the 190A8 Pilots Handbook (this is not verbatim), this aircraft has two "fire" buttons dedicated to firing the machineguns and cannons, which are control by an electrical arming and priming weapons system. This system has a total of two safety/priming switches, which must be switch on in the following order: Primary Switch to ON, wait a minimum of three seconds to prevent the system from overloading, Secondary Switch to ON.

The Primary Switch and the Primary fire button arms/fires the cowl mounted Machine guns, and the inner wing cannons, together. They could not be fired independently, as they were electrically armed simultaneously.

The Secondary Switch and fire button, controls the outter wing cannons and any gondola mounted weaponry.

In Aces High the primary weapons bank in the Fw190A series fires only the MG's mounted in the cowling, while the secondary weapons bank fires both inner and outter 20mm cannons. Thereby allowing the virtual pilot to fire either MG's only, 20mm cannons only, or all together.

If you want to get technical about it, it should theoretically only allow you to fire the cowl MG's and inner 20mm cannons together always, the outter 20mm or 30mm cannons from the secondary button, or of course all together if you push both buttons.

So RAM, yes your correct when you say that the AH Fw190 has incorrect modeling of its weapon systems

But you may wish to keep your mouth shut about it.

Funked, your scanner working? If so, could you post the page from the handbook that I am referencing here? My scanner went kaput the other day.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-21-2001).]

RAM · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2001, 12:35:00 PM »

First, how much would it cost to ship a copy of that handbook to Spain? I would gladly run with the costs.

Second, Verm, all the Fw190As had this switches, was one of the best features of the all-electric fighter that the 190 was. But I'm not sure at all that they work like you say, because I think you are missing one thing.

Lets see, if I understand correctly what you say, are two switches, with positions on and off. I always have read about the easy ability of the Fw190 to fire MG only, one bank of cannnons only ,all the cannons, and cannons and MG.

So, I give as sure that with switches off, the weapons are "secured"?...or maybe "MG only"?

first Switch on, second off, you can fire MG and inner cannon

First switch off second on, you can fire outter cannon only.

Both switches on: All fire linked.

Frankly, I would like this system more than the one we have now, would help immensely to aim the outter cannons in the A5 and in the 30mm A8.

but I think you are forgetting one thing, vermillion, and is that the pilot has TWO FIRE BUTTONS on his stick. One for MGs and other for cannons, thus giving the pilot manually the chance to fire cannons only ,MG only or both at the time,given that the proper switches are on.

So this is what I see:

-BOth switches off: weapons secure

-Switch 1 on, switch 2 off: MG button fires MG only, Cannon button fires inner cannon only

-Switc 1 off, Switch 2 on: MG button does nothing, Cannon button fires outer canon only.

-Both switches on: MG button fires MG only, Cannon button fires all cannons (this is the only setting in Aces High right now).

This would match pretty well what I've heard about the Fw190A firing system, and would explain that a 2 cannon Fw190A could fire MGs only and cannons only. With your conception of the system, this wont be feasible . In fact, according to the system you explain, it would be impossibly by any means to use MG fire independently at least of the inner cannons...yet I have heard, and I am sure that you too, lots of stories of Fw190 pilots using the MGs to aim before firing the cannons.

This kind of use requires FAST control on the weapon to be fired, a switch lasting 3 seconds to activate wont be good, but two buttons controlling cannons and MGs would be ideal for this purpose.

Also if the plane is to fire both internal cannons and MG linked together no matter what the button you press...then WHY add two firing buttons instead of only one?. Makes no sense.

Personally I think that this is the way it worked, but you are the one who has the original handbook, not me

So please take a look at the handbook again and tell us if what I explain can be accomplished

and for heavens' sake PLEASE SEND ME A COPY!

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-22-2001).]

Vermillion · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2001, 01:16:00 PM »

I will see what I can do about making a photocopy of what I have. Please realize that it is quite extensive, so shipping it to Spain will not be cheap, but shouldn't be overly expensive either.

RAM, the switches are ON/OFF safties and each are hard wired to the individual seperate fire buttons.

The material has some very nice diagrams and pictures, and explains the operation in depth. Just like I did in the above post.

First button fires inner weapons and cowl weapons. Second button fires outter weapons and any gondolas. To fire all weapons, you obviously push both buttons simultaneously.

It doesn't work in the boolean logic fashion you think it does.

Email me your postal mailing address, and I will see what I can do about getting you a photocopy of the materials.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-21-2001).]

Jochen · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2001, 01:24:00 PM »

This has been discussed before and HTC stated that it was too big work to implement detailed gun selection. Maybe if some guns are treated as ordnance...

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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

fats · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »

In 'Six Months to Oblivion' a pilot is forced to fly someone else's machine ( Fw 190 ) and is unaware that the guns are wired differently from his machine.

In 'Double Fighter Knight' a pilot is forced to fly someone else's machine ( Bf 109 ) and is unaware that the guns are wired differently from his machine.

Point being they could rewire them the way the pilots wanted and did do so.

// fats

RAM · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2001, 01:30:00 PM »

Ahh I see, so the switches are mere circuit breakers, but then ...could them have been linked to the cannons only,and not to the MGs too?...

Please can you take a look at what happens when both switches are off?, maybe then the inner cannon/MG button fired MGs only.

This would forbid the inner cannon firing alone, but would still allow the MGs to fire alone (hehe standard RAM tactic------>fire ALL the MG ammo after take off so you can fire only cannons

).

And then of course we can start asking for removable MGs on hangar

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion:
I will see what I can do about making a photocopy of what I have. Please realize that it is quite extensive, so shipping it to Spain will not be cheap, but shouldn't be overly expensive either.

No problem, please add any costs to the shipping and I will pay for it.

Mail adress otw by email.

thanks

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-21-2001).]

Vermillion · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2001, 01:57:00 PM »

Jochen, the point is that the HTC system of having only a "primary" and "secondary" weapons system is in fact correct for the Fw190A series. So there would not need to be any re-coding to "fix" the problem. The "bug" is actually in the virtual 190 drivers favor as it allow seperate firing of MG and cannons, where in real life it appears to have been impossible. Thats why I kiddingly told RAM he may wish to be quiet

Because if it is "fixed" it will only make it harder on 190 pilots.

Fats, of course thing could be modified in the field. There's probably thousands of stories of how different pilots, mechanics, squadrons, and fighter groups, tinkered with their machines making slight changes or hotrodding them. But you have to decide on a "standard" aircraft somehow, and I think the factory tests and pilots manuals are a very good start.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2001, 02:06:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by RAM:
(hehe standard RAM tactic------>fire ALL the MG ammo after take off so you can fire only cannons ).

To fire only cannons you only need to configure two joystick setups and assign them to some key combination.
I use 3 joy setups mapped to F10, F11 and F12:
F10 -> MG only
F11 -> Guns only (all guns)
F12 -> All weapons

RAM · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2001, 02:17:00 PM »

LOL Mandoble, I already do that, I have one joy button for cannons only, other for MG only and other for all weapons linked.

What I meant is that if the interruptor switches work as I suggested before (MGs only, inner cannon+MGs, outer canon only, or all the fire linked), then the inner cannons wont be able to fire alone. Then I would use the MG only to fire all the MG ammo and then I would be able to fire inner/outer cannons independently without the problem of the nasty MG

BTW verm, what happened with both switches off? then it was MG only, or nothing at all?

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-21-2001).]

Vermillion · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2001, 04:07:00 PM »

They're safties RAM, so both switches off, means nothing fires.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

RAM · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2001, 04:22:00 PM »

CC thanks for the info

. Seems that I got that wrong then

Cant wait for the handbook to arrive. Thanks for that,too!

(taking notes, getting ready to lobby again to be able to remove MGs from 190A in hangars

)

Pongo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2001, 06:11:00 PM »

Verm.
It must be more flexible then you say, or does a 2 cannon FW have to fire its cowl guns and its cannons with one button and ignore the other button?

I agree with RAM.
If the primary button fired the cowl guns and the inner cannon. And the secondary button fired the outer cannon, that would be better then what we have because...
A) Even when the outer guns are the same(4Xmg151/20) the ammo count is more simular for the inner guns(fire duration) when you want to conserve ammo you would want to do it by not fireing the second button for you lower ammo outer guns.
B) typicaly the outer guns are the wierd trajectory ones. like the 108 and the MGFF. They are the ones that you want to fire independently or only when you see the whites of thier eyes.

I hope that this can be modified.

gatt · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2001, 03:08:00 AM »

Can you believe it guys? I bought the 190A-8 manual in the best aviation bookshop in Milan. Then I sent it to Funked, then to Maik. Now looks like it is travelling around the world ...

Ach Funked, I'd never had sent it to you. You work for the RAF test center

Vermillion · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2001, 08:07:00 AM »

Thats the idea Gatt

Pass it on !

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Lephturn · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2001, 08:07:00 AM »

If you guys are ever allowed to rewire your firing mechanism on your FW, I should be allowed to have my mechanic modify the wastegate pressure on my Jug's radial just like they commonly did in the field. Right? You wouldn't mind meeting up with a Jug that could pull 72" MAN would you?

I think it's fine like it is. Not only that, but it seems to be accurate to how the planes were produced. Sounds right to me.

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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome!

"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)