Author Topic: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)  (Read 3336 times)

Offline moot

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #90 on: March 29, 2009, 08:31:05 PM »
define for people who pay their $15,who play within the parameters of the game,what is acceptable and what  is not..
Not what "we" are saying.
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Offline grizz441

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #91 on: March 29, 2009, 08:34:22 PM »
Grizz, the win the war isnt the mentality, its the result. 
You can look at it from many perspectives, but for me, I look at it just as I do the military and joint forces, there are the Army, Air Force, Navy etc. etc. in joint military operations, we have squads that are totally different and play or have tactics different than another, yet we are all like minded in logistics, tactics, having the "what needs to happen next" chess game mentality, when our team is thinking the same way but going about it in different ways, isnt that still a team effort just like in the military when combined in a joint force?   We have no generals, admirals, but for the most part most are aware what needs to happen and get it done.

Isn't this a contradiction?  You are saying winning the war is the result yet don't you have to try to win the war to achieve it? i.e. taking weak unguarded points on the map, strategic points on the map, etc.  If your nightly goal is to capture bases then your ultimate goal is to win the war even though your squad only plays a small role in the war effort which in itself is total anarchy.  

In general, I don't really care that much.  I think it would be a lot more fun (and more practical) if two squads could duke it out on a mini map and try to win a mini war per say.  Since each squad would be in total control of their own war effort, it would actually be an accomplishment to win.  Unlike the total crap shoot that is undeniably determined by the sides that have more numbers in the MA.

Offline Bronk

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #92 on: March 29, 2009, 08:36:26 PM »
Yawn....



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Offline falcon23

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #93 on: March 29, 2009, 08:36:40 PM »
MOOT, :salute..People have got to get over the big missions..They are run by ALL SIDES.. :salute

Offline grizz441

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #94 on: March 29, 2009, 08:41:55 PM »
Fellas, lets mix this discussion up a little bit, it bores Bronk.  :rolleyes:  :rofl

Offline Dadsguns

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #95 on: March 29, 2009, 08:48:17 PM »
If your nightly goal is to capture bases then your ultimate goal is to win the war even though your squad only plays a small role in the war effort which in itself is total anarchy.  

If is the key word.  Yet it isn't our nightly goal to win the war.  
Taking bases is just a part of it, furballing, gv'ing, porking, practicing, all of these things is what our nightly goal are, I have never set out a goal to "just take bases tonight boys at every cost".  I will say that we have decided to roll some bases for a reset to get another map since we were stuck on it for several days, and also have purposely not defended bases as rooks or knits were close to a reset for another map.  

Winning the war means nothing to me, for some it does.  To each their own.  But when one side works together in a fluid motion, that's the accomplishment, and getting a reset is the result not the goal.   :salute  

 
Fellas, lets mix this discussion up a little bit, it bores Bronk.  :rolleyes:  :rofl

He sets his alarm every half hour to check the boards to see what he missed...  :lol
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 08:50:54 PM by Dadsguns »


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Offline Bronk

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #96 on: March 29, 2009, 08:50:45 PM »
Fellas, lets mix this discussion up a little bit, it bores Bronk.  :rolleyes:  :rofl
:D Been done to death grizz.  Furballers see base taking as a reason to start combat.  While certain others see it as the end all be all of the game. Not going to change until HT makes a change. Wont that kludge be awesome? :aok
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Offline grizz441

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #97 on: March 29, 2009, 09:00:12 PM »
If is the key word.  Yet it isn't our nightly goal to win the war.  
Taking bases is just a part of it, furballing, gv'ing, porking, practicing, all of these things is what our nightly goal are, I have never set out a goal to "just take bases tonight boys at every cost".  I will say that we have decided to roll some bases for a reset to get another map since we were stuck on it for several days, and also have purposely not defended bases as rooks or knits were close to a reset for another map.  

Winning the war means nothing to me, for some it does.  To each their own.  But when one side works together in a fluid motion, that's the accomplishment, and getting a reset is the result not the goal.   :salute  


Doesn't the map reset on its own weekly?

Offline moot

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #98 on: March 29, 2009, 09:03:08 PM »
That's not the problem Falcon.  We've derailed the topic but since it's already gone as far as it could (I could be wrong), let's run with it anyway.

When you see someone in the street doing something.. You don't know that person, it's just a bystander. You don't know the full context, but you can work out a dialectic based on the assumed premise (that what you're seeing is what it is). If you argue for or against what he's doing, it's not really the true person you're evaluating, it's what you've perceived, what's visible. It's an abstraction but not just for the sake of arguing, it will apply if the premise is in fact accurate, if it matches reality.  The argument here is the same.  It's not about every op by any specific squad, it's about a specific type of gameplay:  gameplay that's on the far side of less-fun.
The argument isn't that every big squad follows the debated un-fun anti-gameplay, it's that they're an entity who, unlike random player groups where it's merely emergent, willingly decides what to do or not.  It decides to press on an attack when the target is undefended.  The main valid point (I'll admit there's invalid arguments e.g. like you said "all big squads do X everytime" or "furballers do Y all the time") is that big squads, on the one hand, argue that they can't see any justification in heeding to others' arguments regardless of whether those arguments make perfect sense because they paid 15$ like everyone else, but on the other hand refuse to admit that they willingly impose on others not just a type of gameplay those being imposed on may or may not approve, but one that's definitely neither fun nor conducive to those players even getting better -- that is conducive to those players improving their odds at surviving and actually having fun playing on the team opposite the big organized missions.  And not to a minor degree, but to the largest degree of any player entity in the game: they're the ones with the most manpower at their disposal.  The same way raw demographics can nullify an established order.

Let me put it another way, though it's less good an example.  I could fly just to win in the game.  Fly the best plane, fly as unfairly as possible.  Stack the odds on my side with total disregard for how much fun the guy in red is having.  But I don't.
There's no fun or thrill in watching a heavyweight multi-champion knock-out a super-lightweight rookie within the first ten seconds of round 1.  The point of a game is to interact.  To act through an unfolding gameplay with as many possible actions so that the actors are left with as much creative freedom, not to be denied any action within a minimized playtime.  

And there's no meaning to victories without peril.  With all due respect (and I mean it), it's absurd to play a multiplayer game where you minimize multiplayer interaction.  I'm not saying it's not fun.. I probably would have played CT a whole lot, not least the toolsheding missions in the B25H.. Anti-shipping raids etc.  I get it.  But I wouldn't have played those missions if there was absolutely zero doubt about the outcome or if difficulty was non-existant.  This last paragraph went on a tangent but it's still related.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 09:07:23 PM by moot »
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #99 on: March 29, 2009, 09:03:56 PM »
I would think so when TT comes around, but before that it wouldnt.  Even so, 5 days of the same map is enough for some.


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Offline grizz441

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #100 on: March 29, 2009, 09:12:29 PM »
So you're saying it's like a janitorial job to reset the map every few days?  Maps get stale but I would never waste my time trying to reset the map.
 

Yes Bronk, as you know, that's the nature of bbs.  Have the same discussions over and over again and if lucky, look at them from different perspectives from time to time.

Offline FALCONWING

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #101 on: March 29, 2009, 09:31:13 PM »

I never said that !!! Missions are the bread and butter of squad operations !!! The point of having a squad is flying together and accomplishing a goal...capture bases, stop attacks, even win the war, can we agree with that?

The "horde missions" is whats bad. Honestly how many BOPs would it take to capture a port? Certainly not 20+ ! If you need that many, you should spend more time in the TA than the mains.  There is nothing wrong with missions !!! How many times do I have to say that !! 10 guys in a mission can take a small field, you add 4 more to "make sure", the other 5+ hit the nearest VB that spawns to the small fields you are hitting.

Now we have two fights going, even if you only have a few defenders for each they feel they have a chance to defend. Maybe they do and blunt your attack, you regroup, reassess and reattack. Wheres the fun in the first 10 guys into a base flatten everything and the other ten just circle for landing  :rolleyes: Challenge yourself, challenge your squad. ANYBODY with 20 newbis can take a base, only a skilled group could do it like I'm proposing.... are you and your buds up for the challenge, or can you only steamroll with 3 to 1 numbers?

Again Fugitive it DEPENDS on what seems "fun" or "interesting" at the time....

I don't see any more glory in "sneaking" an undefended base (only way you are taking vbases and ports with 3 players) then larger obvious missions that achieve the same goal.  I would argue that the latter actually provides more opportunity for the "fight" to occur then the first...


You weren't on at the time this was occurring...so your perspective is suspect...from the ch200 comments at the time from the rooks we would have thought we would have run into stiff opposition...didn't happen...

Look lets be honest...the biggest thing we ALL miss are the 1 v 1 opportunities and small meaningful enagements that used to occur...I do get that...

In my opinion those opportunities still exist but the mentality of the Fiter Jock has changed as well...

- there are still buffs milk running fields that can be hunted down...in AWC that might be the only "combat" you were gonna find in off hours...

-there are individual pilots by themselves flyin around but who wants to up against a tiny darbar to find it??...the days of a pilot grabbing out to 20k to be in position to force a fight are mostly gone...we all want quickie fights with little effort and preparation...heck we are getting "ranked" on kills/hour....

i remember when we used the term "hunting" when we upped...it was appropriate...you didnt know what you were going to run into or what they were in...or what alt..if you got 5 kills in a night you were happy...now i don't want to land a single sortie if I don't have 5...

You are of the opinion that the reason the game has changed is because 20% of the current community likes having group action and tangible success.  I believe it is the 80% who are unhappy because THEY don't choose to fly the way they used to.

Try this a different way...you don't like the hording...so why not take 3 guys and fly over and attack a base and have a small furball erupt??? What prevents you from doing that...the map is large enough for it to occur?  I can easily ignore the basetaking on nights when i just feel like furballing AND i can always find reasonable odds to fight against.  I know where large GV battles are occuring and I know where small gv battles occur...same with planes..it's not that hard.  PM me if you are struggling with this...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 09:55:55 PM by FALCONWING »
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Offline FALCONWING

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #102 on: March 29, 2009, 09:38:32 PM »
Usually i'm trying to stay out of these kind of threads, but...

Several times tonight Rook's were attacked by Bish missions. Many of them NOE,  and friggin HUGE.  How easy do you think is it to muster enough defenders to defend vs such a 30+ players mission? "Psychology", "Leadership" or "charisma" don't help. It's not that everybody is sitting in the tower waiting for this. And if you don't get enough defenders withing 2-3 mins, you can basically forget it. The last missions invariably smashed all hangars first.
Two or three times Rooks were able to muster a defence. What happened? The battle immediately died. 5 Mins later another field was swarmed in a totally different location. Within 2h hours, I witnessed maybe like 20 attacks. Each time resistance got serious, the battle died immediately. Persistence was only shown when local numbers were extremely lopsided.

The last battle after reset on Baltic: Bish attacking A35 en mass. After some time, it was clear the base couldn't be captured immediately, Bish were starting to get driven back towards A19. Guess what happened? Within 5mins all enemies were gone. None upped to continue attack, none upped to prevent Rooks getting towards A19, none upped to defend that base. A few mins later: Bish NOE A45.

Bish do a nice job of responding to NOE's...BoPs in particular will respond when I call for them...I can't speak for why other country's don't defend as well.

NOE's occur for one reason...they work...but in order for them to work the opposing country either has to be badly outnumbered so they can't muster a defense OR the other country could care less and be unwilling to "bail" to oppose them.  I enjoy "busting up" an NOE more than i love capturing a base.  You up right into a fight with inferior planes opposing you...and did i mention the goons...they are tasty too...

I don't like smashing hangers....VH perhaps because of the lethality of whirble's...I would agree with you there that is less sporting...but if it is an important base to have then sometimes one needs too...

None of the major anti-noe posters have I run into fighting against NOE's.  My guess is there is too much of an opportunity to get shot down...when you begin to dislike getting shot down over engaging in combat then I think you have a problem I can't solve for you.  I personally don't care about dying in the game...my satisfaction lies more in successfully defending or taking a base...that would make me a "win the war" type in the l33t fiterpilot mind but I could also care less about "resetting a map"....wierd huh ;)  Oddly enough my style of gameplay allows me tons of air-to-air fighting...and I love the game...hard for me to feel that it is I who is going about it all wrong. ;)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 09:58:36 PM by FALCONWING »
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Offline Steve

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2009, 10:03:09 PM »
M00t, whom is a reasoning and well educated guy, and I have a fundamental difference of opinion, interestingly enough.  I think the hordes have nothing to do with any degradation of the quality of gameplay. He disagrees.  I think it is the large maps that make it harder to catch NOE's and "hordes" I think hordes have always been around, it's just that they were more easily contacted on the smaller maps.

as for you mission and  big squad guys... like I said,  it's your $15.00 and nobody has any business telling you how to have fun in the game.  *shrug*
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Offline moot

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Re: So many targets, so little ammo(horde sighting)
« Reply #104 on: March 29, 2009, 10:06:50 PM »
I don't get how we're in disagreement, but then I couldn't walk a stripe on the ground. atm
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