F6F, FG-1, P-51, P-47 comparison

[BnZs]

BnZs, how often do you fly the 109?

Not too often, but I have tried to cause asymmetrical deployment with that and other slat planes and have never been able to do it, no matter how much I stomp the rudder and off-center the ball, etc. If anyone knows how to make an AHII plane deploy slats asymmetrically, I would like to see the film and know how.

[Anaxogoras]

Not too often, but I have tried to cause asymmetrical deployment with that and other slat planes and have never been able to do it, no matter how much I stomp the rudder and off-center the ball, etc. If anyone knows how to make an AHII plane deploy slats asymmetrically, I would like to see the film and know how.

It doesn't show in the film viewer.  I'd like you to teach me how not to deploy the slats asymmetrically.  Just fly the 109 or La-5/7 around for a while and you will hear the slats come out one after the other.

[Motherland]

You can't really make it happen, it just happens... usually at very inopportune times.

[BnZs]

It doesn't show in the film viewer.  I'd like you to teach me how not to deploy the slats asymmetrically.  Just fly the 109 or La-5/7 around for a while and you will hear the slats come out one after the other.

I have flown both airplanes some, and I just fooled around with the 109 F-4 for about 15 minutes trying to make the slats deploy asymmetrically. I tried it with combat trim off, combat trim on, with the ball centered and every variation of rudder/aileron input skewing the ball. I did not see the slats deploying asymmetrically once, did not get any auditory indication of this happening, and did not experience any un-commanded rolling that would indicate asymmetrical flap deployment. I tried pulling smoothly and deploying the slats, and pulling harsly into the stall. Is it possible you are mistaking the wing drop in an accelerated stall for uneven slat deployment? But I didn't find the stall unusual either. So I must say this is abit curious.

[Widewing]

Oh BS!  Geez, I've done stalls in a Mustang as a 500 hour Cessna pilot.   We were never higher than 7500', plenty of warning, no drama.

Are you talking about power-off stalls, or deliberate accelerated stalls? I'm certain that no P-51 owner will let a back seater fly very far into a stall before he tells them to release back pressure on the stick.

I've never heard anything good about the P-51's stall behavior, especially when the pilot lets the stall fully develop. Power-on spins were prohibited as they were and still are considered very high risk. Recovery could take as much as 10,000 feet. More than a few pilots have managed to kill themselves spinning P-51s.


My regards,

Widewing

[Anaxogoras]

Try the 109k, it is the most squirly 109.

[BnZs]

Try the 109k, it is the most squirly 109.

Just tried it, same variations in the testing, and could get no visual evidence or evidence of flight effects from asymmetrical deployment no matter how hard I tried. The airplane tends to drop a wing to whichever side when you whip into an accelerated stall in uncoordinated flight (except when you have the engine at WEP, then the airplane *really* does not want to roll right under any circumstances), but there is nothing even resembling the sort of un-commanded roll effect I would expect from uneven slat deployment when not stalled.

A time or two when I was visually inspecting the aircraft in external views the sound effect *sounded* like one was slamming closed after the other, but as the visual picture  and flight effects did not agree with this conclusion, I assume its a sound thing and not related to flight modeling.

I also note that the slats are not found on the damage list for the 109 (Or any other aircraft IIRC) and thus presumably cannot be shot away or jammed.

[Anaxogoras]

A time or two when I was visually inspecting the aircraft in external views the sound effect *sounded* like one was slamming closed after the other, but as the visual picture  and flight effects did not agree with this conclusion, I assume its a sound thing and not related to flight modeling.

I can feel the effects of asymmetrical slat deployment, and I'm surprised that you claim you don't.  It is in the flight model.

Why would you expect it to cause "un-commanded roll?"  What does happen is a wingtip-snatch, and you have to let the plane right itself.

[BnZs]

Why would you expect it to cause "un-commanded roll?"  What does happen is a wingtip-snatch, and you have to let the plane right itself.

I would expect some unusual, harsh roll-yaw-something-if a lift increasing device was deployed on one wing and not the other. I did not experience any unusual roll or yaw effects when trying to deploy them asymmetrically. The only difference I even *think*I might detect between the slatted planes and non slatted planes is abit more bouncy in pitch when handled less than smoothly. A sudden too-hard pull into an accelerated stall, such as one might accidentally do in a dogfight, even flying as un-coordinated as possible deliberately, fails to produce any effects which are unusual for a high-torque single-engine airplane.

[Die Hard]

I would expect some unusual, harsh roll-yaw-something-if a lift increasing device was deployed on one wing and not the other.

Slots and slats don't add lift, not much anyway. They allow high angle of attack without stalling.

[Masherbrum]

Oh BS!  Geez, I've done stalls in a Mustang as a 500 hour Cessna pilot.   We were never higher than 7500', plenty of warning, no drama.

Voss?

[BnZs]

Slots and slats don't add lift, not much anyway. They allow high angle of attack without stalling.

Correct, but, but I was riding the edge and jerking it into the buffet, and still no sign of anything to indicate one slat open and one slat closed. The 109 seems fairly stable in turns right up until you pull it into the stall. The only thing it seems to do is the nose "bounces" down fairly abruptly if you suddenly let go the back pressure and the slats close. So I've got to say slat asymmetry seems to be a non-issue for the AHII. Kind of like how the AHII pilot gets a great loud buffet and shaking to warn him of stall, even in the P-51.

[Anaxogoras]

Why do you think one slat would remain open while the other would remain closed?  It sounds like you're saying this is what should happen, but I've never read anything about the 109 that indicated such a problem.  Instead, what could be troublesome is that one would open or close a half second before the other: this happens frequently in Aces High.

Really, this time I think you're coming at it with an a priori idea of how things should work, and then criticizing the flight model when it doesn't mach your expectation.

[BnZs]

Why do you think one slat would remain open while the other would remain closed?  I've never read anything about the 109 to indicate that this happened.  Instead, what could be troublesome is that one would open or close a half second before the other: this happens frequently in Aces High.

Really, this time I think you're coming at it with an a priori idea of how things should work, and then criticizing the flight model when it doesn't mach your expectation.

I'm not campaigning to have the modeling changed on this particular point, I was more pointing out (in response to Krusty ) that there are ALOT of nasty flight quirks that could be added to AHII besides the P-51s treacherous stall, IF we got HTC to go on a "make the airplanes more difficult to fly."

If the deployment is asymmetrical, the period of asymmetry is so brief I can't pick it up visually looking at the plane in F3 view nor can I detect any deleterious flight effects. The 109 seems to remain a fairly stable platform right up until you actually stall it. None of the sort of thing you run into with the Ta-152 for example.

[Anaxogoras]

I'm not campaigning to have the modeling changed on this particular point, I was more pointing out (in response to Krusty ) that there are ALOT of nasty flight quirks that could be added to AHII besides the P-51s treacherous stall, IF we got HTC to go on a "make the airplanes more difficult to fly."

If the deployment is asymmetrical, the period of asymmetry is so brief I can't pick it up visually looking at the plane in F3 view nor can I detect any deleterious flight effects. The 109 seems to remain a fairly stable platform right up until you actually stall it. None of the sort of thing you run into with the Ta-152 for example.

Ah, yes, I do agree that the nastier traits of these aircraft are sanitized for us.  In many cases, I've read that merely taking off required full-rudder told hold straight down the runway, whereas in AH you only need moderate rudder input to hold even the most tricky fighters straight.

edit:
I figured out how to get one slat to open and the other remain closed.  109k, 50% fuel, at about 200mph do a lazy barrel roll with a bit of back pressure on the stick and rudder in the direction of the roll.  Do it right, and the outside wing slat will open while the inside wing slat remains closed.  Still, this doesn't happen much during combat.