DA is a problem

[AWwrgwy]

What happened to "make the views MA standard"?  That is something I would like to see happen.  May not discourage people from moving into the MA's because of a "limited" viewing system.



wrongway

[strong10]

    Not everybody likes to read the instructions right away.  Sometimes you just want to get into it.  Takes too long to know everything about ACM.  I think you read some, apply some then repeat.  The game commercial doesnt advertise for training, it makes you envision dogfighting and shooting people down, joining up with a squad.. 
    I enjoy the DA when there is slim fighting going on in the MA.  It isnt that much different from the MA, minus the base capturing.  A few more new guys in there sure but it is a great place to work on SA and new maneuvers your working on.  I go in there to work on getting used to my Trackir. 
    If you are a good player and want to try and change it, ask if anyone wants to work on there ACM or 1v1.  Go to a separate base and teach them a couple of basic moves they can work on.  Along with that tell them some basic arena etiquette.  We have enough armchair generals who I always hear in the MA's, they should show some new guys some basics rather than telling a group of non-squaddies how to do it and what they are doing wrong. 
   Complaining folks should start with number one first before they complain about others.  Not everyones perfect and some people just want to blow off steam here and dont mind a kamikaze HO with a ram.  When I'm stewing about the guy who just Ho'ed/rammed me on my flight back to KILL HIM, I take the time to think about what I did wrong and how to avoid the same from happening, not complain on 200 or in the forums.   
   The DA is great for what it is, a merciless furball.           

[kilz]

forget mods, forget changing anything. just get a large group of veteran sticks together in there with one mission in  mind.......provide them with a good fight. they'll either learn to fight well, or they;ll leave.

 

IMHO the only time a mod might needed in the DA is to stop interference with a couple of guys dueling that don't want to nor should be expected to school the perp on arena etiquette.

that's the only reason why i want a mod there for. not to controll furball island. i understand that's a FFA

[2bighorn]

Its sad when you can't even get a fight in the DA any more, and now we have the new "trainees" learning this crap from this pond scum. "Yee Hahh!"

What happened to DFC? Clubs like yours is all the change DA needs. New guys could learn a lot from you just from watching, but alas, DFC has to start walking the walk.

It would be pity not to pass all that talent and knowledge down the line.   

[DamnedRen]

    Not everybody likes to read the instructions right away. 

I just read that the average computer user has an attention span of approximately 10 seconds......................
1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009,  1010.....
I just read that the average computer user has an attention span of approximately 10 seconds 

I think it's computer induced ADD.............
1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010

I think it's computer induced ADD............. 

And folks wonder why no one reads the MOTD.

Ren

[Dawger]

I've been flying online for aover a decade (September 1996). I spent a long time as a trainer in another game. One remarkably similar to this one.

In 12.5 years I have not noticed any real difference in online behavior.

I came to Aces High about 3 years ago. While Aces High is remarkably similar to the game I came from, HTC has made important changes that make it more accessible to large numbers of people.

And that larger number of people brings out a whole new set of problems. And we see a symptom of it here.

The "behavior" in the Dueling Arena is IDENTICAL to Main Arena behavior. I fly in all the arenas a least a little bit. I run around furball lake to warm up and waits for squadmates to log in. My squadron uses the DA for training events. I poke around in the TA. I fly in the AvA, and all of the Mains.

Behavior is identical in every arena. Before you blame it on some new pervasive degradation of AH society, ITS THE SAME BEHAVIOR I saw over a decade ago when I started online.

The only real change is an ever increasing number of people who believe they have a mandate to dictate other folks behavior. I blame that the easy access to good computer equipment. Back in the day, good gaming rigs were limited to folks who were serious enthusiasts. And aviation gaming was an even more selective subset. For the most part, flying games were populated by people who understood that an individual must take responsibility for themselves. they were the ones with the extra cash to by pricey gaming rigs. Getting yourself killed in an online game wasn't the fault of the "picktards, gangtards, Hotards,Spitdweebs or any other type of 'tard." It was your own damn fault.

Whining about such things would only get you laughed at (politely because no one else could hear you laughing back then) and you would earn a label of a whiner. Of course we had different names back then for those things. "Picking" was called supporting your wingman. (In a furball the closest friendly was your wing man, according to Shaw). Ganging was called flying as a team. Teamwork is now so discouraged that last night I saw a formation of 20 or so planes that was 10 miles long called "Awesome looking". Half a mile in trail is not awesome formation work.

People did whine about Head Ons. And that is where the wheat was separated from the chaff.

This is what I have to say about Head Ons. Never take ACM advice from a guy who whines about Head Ons. He doesn't have a clue if he can't avoid a high aspect guns pass and turn it to his advantage.

Unfortunately, Aces High is filled to the brim with those folks and it all stems back to the silly notion of training with a cold first merge. Dumbest thing I ever saw.

Train like you fight and fight like you train.

Training with a cold merge and then going to an arena and expecting a cold merge in an arena is probably the root of all the HO whining. I'd like to slap the knucklehead that came up with cold merge training.

And don't whine about a particular airplane, just learn how to beat them. every airplane has a weakness. Learn to exploit it. If you can't exploit the weakness sometimes, its not the plane, its the pilot.

So over a decade flying behavior remains the same. The only difference is the level of whining has increased remarkably, mainly because computers are more accessible to folks that blame others for there own failures and seek to remedy that through the imposition of rules restricting the freedom of others.

And that is where I'll have to stop on that topic, for obvious reasons.

NOTE: I'm not the greatest virtual pilot that ever lived but every virtual death I have ever suffered was my own fault. I fly the P38 exclusively because i like P38's. And I don't care how other people choose to play the game. I sincerely wish Aces High had a way of making your squelch list carry over from one game session to the next. Then I could squelch all the whiners and pretend it was 1996 again.

[moot]

It's not identical.  It's worse at the lake because the lake's setup is even more conducive to dweeby and arcade crap that's nothing like the best the game has to offer.

The only real change is an ever increasing number of people who believe they have a mandate to dictate other folks behavior.

The right to argue. In this instance, argue over what makes the game good, and how to improve gameplay. e.g. Have the new players understand ACM, SA, etc. It takes 15-30min with a trainer.   
The real people who follow the pattern in the above quote are armchair generals.. People bickering over which way a CV should go.

Training with a cold merge and then going to an arena and expecting a cold merge in an arena is probably the root of all the HO whining. I'd like to slap the knucklehead that came up with cold merge training.

And don't whine about a particular airplane, just learn how to beat them. every airplane has a weakness. Learn to exploit it. If you can't exploit the weakness sometimes, its not the plane, its the pilot.

Totally off topic.

[The Fugitive]

What happened to DFC? Clubs like yours is all the change DA needs. New guys could learn a lot from you just from watching, but alas, DFC has to start walking the walk.

It would be pity not to pass all that talent and knowledge down the line.   

The problem is like a school yard now. You have a group of kids that are the "cool kids", then you have others like us "old guys" who are here for what your suppose to be here for. Then you have the new guys. Who are they going to "hang" with, or try to?

I did talk with one guy, he was firering at a friendly. I pointed out what would happen, and in stead of coming back with an attitude, he replied that he knew, but his computer had locked up and he was sorting it out. I did have a couple of good fights but the problems started when I was trying to talk to another guy. He was RTBin   he said he had damage   no ammo   Its a fighting area, your suppose to fight, not run away, not land kills, FIGHT.

Then the peanut gallery started in (all the cool guys) defending this stuff. Whats the new guy suppose to do? Listen to the "old guy" trying to explain things, or join the "cool guys"?


Dawger,

I agree that the behavior in all arenas are identical, but it hasn't always been that way. 7-8 years ago here the people played with "honor". ALL where some sort of WWII enthusiast. Wingman tactics were practiced and employed, Buffs flew in formations WITHOUT the formation box checked (we only had singles back then), fighter flew high and low cover, Way points were used with rendezvous of buff and fighter wings. Mission were not only to TAKE a base, but were used to slow defensive responses, destroy radar for the opposing team TACTICAL missions.

The new players....over the last couple of years... have become more of a gamer type player. I'll bet if you could ask and they would answer, over 75% of the people playing have searched the game sites for "codes" and such to get around the game. These people don't play the game they way it was intended. Yes I said "intended" because too many people twist what they want the game to be with things like "well there isn't a rule against that!" Those are the people that are pushing the game inot something its not. Honestly, I can say that the game "was" intended to be a combat game. A place to wage combat using WWII style planes, later expanded to WWII ships, then vehicles. Today, people are not "using" WWII modeled planes and vehicles, they are using what ever "tool" does the job the quickest way possible, and today, the "job" has nothing to do with combat.

Today it's all about grabbing that next base before any defenders show up. It's about loading up a spawn point before the defenders get there. It's about covering your butt, not with a wingman, or BFM's, but with 25 of your closest buddies (half of which they couldn't name 5 of them real names!). I would love to fight against a pair of wingman, but it's never just the two, but 6 or 7 of them, and they don't use wingman tactics...drag and bag, thatch weave and so on, they just go for one HO after the other.

 These are the things the new guy learn. That is how they "train" in the DA, so that is how they "fight" in the MAs.

[DamnedRen]

The problem is like a school yard now. You have a group of kids that are the "cool kids", then you have others like us "old guys" who are here for what your suppose to be here for. Then you have the new guys. Who are they going to "hang" with, or try to?

Sorry about chopping and typing inside your post but I take exception to some of it. 2005 is an old guy? Then what are us guys that have been flying since the early '90's?

I did have a couple of good fights but the problems started when I was trying to talk to another guy. He was RTBin   he said he had damage   no ammo   Its a fighting area, your suppose to fight, not run away, not land kills, FIGHT.

Same issue. Ain't you sitting there typing out rules you wanna live by and so must everyone else? Who died and made you king to say some guy who fought, did or didn't kill someone, got shot up/ out of ammo and tried to make it home should have to stay and fight with nothing but a shot up plane? I gotta call BS. [/color

Then the peanut gallery started in (all the cool guys) defending this stuff. Whats the new guy suppose to do? Listen to the "old guy" trying to explain things, or join the "cool guys"?


Dawger,

I agree that the behavior in all arenas are identical, but it hasn't always been that way. 7-8 years ago here the people played with "honor". ALL where some sort of WWII enthusiast. Wingman tactics were practiced and employed, Buffs flew in formations WITHOUT the formation box checked (we only had singles back then), fighter flew high and low cover, Way points were used with rendezvous of buff and fighter wings. Mission were not only to TAKE a base, but were used to slow defensive responses, destroy radar for the opposing team TACTICAL missions.

The new players....over the last couple of years... have become more of a gamer type player. I'll bet if you could ask and they would answer, over 75% of the people playing have searched the game sites for "codes" and such to get around the game. These people don't play the game they way it was intended. Yes I said "intended" because too many people twist what they want the game to be with things like "well there isn't a rule against that!" Those are the people that are pushing the game inot something its not. Honestly, I can say that the game "was" intended to be a combat game. A place to wage combat using WWII style planes, later expanded to WWII ships, then vehicles. Today, people are not "using" WWII modeled planes and vehicles, they are using what ever "tool" does the job the quickest way possible, and today, the "job" has nothing to do with combat.

More BS. What you are trying to say is people ain't playing the game the way you intended it should be played. Again, same question...who died and made you king? I would think if it was such a big bad thing HTC&Co. would make changes, don't you?

Today it's all about grabbing that next base before any defenders show up. It's about loading up a spawn point before the defenders get there. It's about covering your butt, not with a wingman, or BFM's, but with 25 of your closest buddies (half of which they couldn't name 5 of them real names!). I would love to fight against a pair of wingman, but it's never just the two, but 6 or 7 of them, and they don't use wingman tactics...drag and bag, thatch weave and so on, they just go for one HO after the other.

It's increrdible that such an "old salt" of a few years can't find a fight anywhere in the area that suits his personal requirements. Most of us "young salts" (read 15+ years) seem to have no problems finding any fight we want.

 These are the things the new guy learn. That is how they "train" in the DA, so that is how they "fight" in the MAs.

The last time I visited the DA is was the same as it's been for years. FFA. Usually 2 big groups that try to horde their way through dogfights. Both the Rooks and Knits have a group. It's a furball. It suits some folks to fight like that. What they learn is their business. If they're afraid to tangle with the big bad Arena's, who cares? As long as they don't interfere with individual duels/training that other folks use the DA for. Too much time is spent whining about who did what. If it's that bad, why are you here? Wait! It must not be that bad! Are you in the military? I remember way back when...let the soldiers whine, it means they're happy. Be warey of the silent soldier.

[xbrit]

Ren in defence of Fugitive he's been around since the 90's as well though he only registered that name on the BBS back in 05.
As for the content on all the posts so far I have no feelings either way. They play how they want and I play how I want, if it's not how you want to play don't go to that area instead of trying to change, or stop, other people having fun how they want to.

[The Fugitive]

Sorry about chopping and typing inside your post but I take exception to some of it. 2005 is an old guy? Then what are us guys that have been flying since the early '90's?

I'll take the extra minute to quote a bit clearer....use something other than red next time, hurts the eyes 

2005 under this name, I was MDJOE before that and have flown since AW4W was on AOHell, so ya I'm an "old guy"

Same issue. Ain't you sitting there typing out rules you wanna live by and so must everyone else? Who died and made you king to say some guy who fought, did or didn't kill someone, got shot up/ out of ammo and tried to make it home should have to stay and fight with nothing but a shot up plane? I gotta call BS.

Call BS all you want, but you have to admit that the DUELING arena is suppose to be for DUELING or we could say "fighting". Every fight or duel I've ever had in the TA or DA was to the end. Once the fight was decided you either bailed, crash/aurgered, or where dead. I thought that was what it was all about there....ummm fighting?

More BS. What you are trying to say is people ain't playing the game the way you intended it should be played. Again, same question...who died and made you king? I would think if it was such a big bad thing HTC&Co. would make changes, don't you?

Again call BS all you want, but you have to admit this is a COMBAT game, and in a DUELING arena you should be able to rightly expect COMBAT. right?

It's increrdible that such an "old salt" of a few years can't find a fight anywhere in the area that suits his personal requirements. Most of us "young salts" (read 15+ years) seem to have no problems finding any fight we want.

I have no trouble finding fights, I'm just trying to point out how things have changed, and not really for the good. I'm saying that maybe the new guys are coming in on a different wave lenght, and what important to them "WIN THE GAME OMGZ !!!" is not what it was to us old timers (read 15+ years). I am suggesting that if we show these newer players how it was and yes how it was intended (not by me, but by HTC who made a COMBAT simulation game) how to play we would have MORE combat, more fighting, more tactics, more strategy.

The last time I visited the DA is was the same as it's been for years. FFA. Usually 2 big groups that try to horde their way through dogfights. Both the Rooks and Knits have a group. It's a furball. It suits some folks to fight like that. What they learn is their business. If they're afraid to tangle with the big bad Arena's, who cares? As long as they don't interfere with individual duels/training that other folks use the DA for. Too much time is spent whining about who did what. If it's that bad, why are you here? Wait! It must not be that bad! Are you in the military? I remember way back when...let the soldiers whine, it means they're happy. Be warey of the silent soldier.

Just because "thats the way it is" doesn't mean thats the way it must stay. I'm sure if you dug around through the cobwebs of your failing memory you might remember how it was. More people asked questions, more people helped other people in stead of ridiculing them. There was trash talk, but it was in jest, and it was never as bad as it gets these days. None of us has acess to HTC's "numbers, but I'm willing to bet he loses a bigger number of 2 weekers these days than he did 5 years ago. The only thing that saves the day is he's keeping a bigger number too.

I don't know why you have to come in here an try to verbally slap me around. I was voicing an opinion, and making a suggestion or two. You give me "crap" assuming that I've only been here since 2005 and so I guess I haven't earned the right to call myself an "old guy". Well maybe it just proves my memory is a bit better than yours. I do remember you from AW, as well as many others. I remember when the game was played as a combat game and everyone had fun FIGHTING. Dieing didn't matter, as long as the fight was still there.

At the end of a long session of AH ask your self how many kills you had, or how many deaths you had, I'll bet its a bit hazy and you'll only be able to guess. But let someone ask you what was the best fight of the night and you'll be able to recite every detail, down to speeds and how many times you rolled out your flaps. THAT is what is slowly disappearing from the game. Maybe if us "old timers" keep pointing out this stuff some of the new guys will give it a shot, and want to learn to last longer in a fight. To experience the trill of a fight that lasts 5-10 minutes with your heart pounding, and sweat flowing. To me, sneaking a base, has its thrill, but its nothing like the thrill of fighting for one. I just would like to see these new guys check it out.

[DamnedRen]

Call BS all you want, but you have to admit that the DUELING arena is suppose to be for DUELING or we could say "fighting". Every fight or duel I've ever had in the TA or DA was to the end. Once the fight was decided you either bailed, crash/aurgered, or where dead. I thought that was what it was all about there....ummm fighting?
Again call BS all you want, but you have to admit this is a COMBAT game, and in a DUELING arena you should be able to rightly expect COMBAT. right?

OPPS sorry about the red and I hadn't entended it to change ALL the text to red just my responses. Somehow I don't see anyone in the DA not...ummmm fighting. I think that's why they call it...kinda furball lake???[/color]

I have no trouble finding fights, I'm just trying to point out how things have changed, and not really for the good. I'm saying that maybe the new guys are coming in on a different wave lenght, and what important to them "WIN THE GAME OMGZ !!!" is not what it was to us old timers (read 15+ years). I am suggesting that if we show these newer players how it was and yes how it was intended (not by me, but by HTC who made a COMBAT simulation game) how to play we would have MORE combat, more fighting, more tactics, more strategy.

Here's a silly question...how does one "win the game"? Do they just put up a sign saying "we won"? Give us our points?


Just because "thats the way it is" doesn't mean thats the way it must stay. I'm sure if you dug around through the cobwebs of your failing memory you might remember how it was. More people asked questions, more people helped other people in stead of ridiculing them. There was trash talk, but it was in jest, and it was never as bad as it gets these days. None of us has acess to HTC's "numbers, but I'm willing to bet he loses a bigger number of 2 weekers these days than he did 5 years ago. The only thing that saves the day is he's keeping a bigger number too.

People still ask questions. Most people in the MA either answer or tell them go to the TA. That has not changed since I've been flying. Granted there is always some wise remark from time to time.

I don't know why you have to come in here an try to verbally slap me around. I was voicing an opinion, and making a suggestion or two. You give me "crap" assuming that I've only been here since 2005 and so I guess I haven't earned the right to call myself an "old guy". Well maybe it just proves my memory is a bit better than yours. I do remember you from AW, as well as many others. I remember when the game was played as a combat game and everyone had fun FIGHTING. Dieing didn't matter, as long as the fight was still there.

For an "old guy" us "old guys" would have expected to see more from you than whinin about the way you think it should be. Everytime I get up I fully expect to have a fight (Combat Style) and I really have a lot of fun doing it. I was also trained by some of the "older guys" from the late '80's who said, "Would you rather have great fights, and land them or have great fights and die?" DOH!!! Hmmm, same great fights and live or die? Lessee, yeah, I wanna die. Those trainers were guys like Fool (and Dano who came later). I guess we learned from different folks which shows your lack of understanding of the difference.

At the end of a long session of AH ask your self how many kills you had, or how many deaths you had, I'll bet its a bit hazy and you'll only be able to guess. But let someone ask you what was the best fight of the night and you'll be able to recite every detail, down to speeds and how many times you rolled out your flaps. THAT is what is slowly disappearing from the game. Maybe if us "old timers" keep pointing out this stuff some of the new guys will give it a shot, and want to learn to last longer in a fight. To experience the trill of a fight that lasts 5-10 minutes with your heart pounding, and sweat flowing. To me, sneaking a base, has its thrill, but its nothing like the thrill of fighting for one. I just would like to see these new guys check it out.

I guess I'm just an old kid. Unless the guy is a complete noob if we have the time, to fight to the bitter end, I normally like the fight go on for a while. He learns and I have fun. Do I remember the particulars of some fight that happened last month?  Nope.

Let me say something here...The reason I became a trainer was because some old trainers took me under their wing. They taught me. Their reasons were part selfish. If I got trained well I would give them a good fight. I learned a lot. I found I was having fun but some of the fights were agasint some real new guys. I began thinking like my old trainers and decided I wanted to give back to the game. The better I can make the new guys fly the more fun they will have as will everyone they encounter in the air. And I will also say, it's partly me being selfish, too. If I get up and have a great fight then find out I it was against someone I helped then both of us had fun.In fact, I had a fight with some guy I had helped the other night. He had a little help as the field was capped by an errant N1K'y and a Spitty and they were on top. The Pony was willing to tangle but everytime I got in the N1K jumped in. I dragged them by the field. The spitty tried to sneak in and I hit him. The ack finished him the N1K drifted off but appeared to stay in range. another of our countryman took off. I told him to look out for the N1K but to climb out from under the Pony while I kept his attention. The Pony then came to the dance and we entered into around a 3 minute rolling scissors. He started to get angles on me to the point I thought he just about had me beat. At that point, my countryman joined the fray and our Pony bolted. I stayed on him and I got a shot because I was in trail and poppped him. Had the other guy not gotten in and I told the Pony driver it on private...I thought he had that fight won. He and I had done training in the past. It was a great fight no matter how it came out. That's what it's all about. And that's also why I have a bone to pick and toss crap at whiners...sorry, if the shoe fits.... Do I remember it? Yep, I can actually remember back a couple days still. Guys come into the TA all the time saying, "Hi ren, do you remember me from a year ago or two years ago?" More times than not I have to say with all the numbers and call sign that come through the TA I can't remember em all.

Ya know, you do good work and I respect you for what you do. But, let me ask you this... when was the last time you heard me whine about this type of thing or pretty much anything? I just expected more from you is all.

Ren

[The Fugitive]

OPPS sorry about the red and I hadn't entended it to change ALL the text to red just my responses. Somehow I don't see anyone in the DA not...ummmm fighting. I think that's why they call it...kinda furball lake???

SO running from a plane is fighting, circling at 12k over furball lake to pick is fighting.... hmmmm ok I guess I'll have to rethink this 

I have no trouble finding fights, I'm just trying to point out how things have changed, and not really for the good. I'm saying that maybe the new guys are coming in on a different wave lenght, and what important to them "WIN THE GAME OMGZ !!!" is not what it was to us old timers (read 15+ years). I am suggesting that if we show these newer players how it was and yes how it was intended (not by me, but by HTC who made a COMBAT simulation game) how to play we would have MORE combat, more fighting, more tactics, more strategy.

Here's a silly question...how does one "win the game"? Do they just put up a sign saying "we won"? Give us our points?

Well evidently when that host message pops up that says something about "... you have won the war and have been awarded point yada yada yada" This is what the new players are shooting for. They use what ever they can to get there as fast as they can. To me EVERYTIME I get into a fight I've won. Whether I die or the other guy dies really doesn't matter. Your fight with the pony is a great example. That is what the game is about.

When you train someone do you point out that if you use a plane with nose mounted cannons that the best move is to HO the other guy? No of course not, the same goes for vulching you don't teach those skills thats what makes you one of the good guys.

I'm not trying to "whine" I'm just pointing out what I see as a problem, maybe some good will come of it.

[2bighorn]

The problem is like a school yard now. You have a group of kids that are the "cool kids", then you have others like us "old guys" who are here for what your suppose to be here for. Then you have the new guys. Who are they going to "hang" with, or try to?

I did talk with one guy, he was firering at a friendly. I pointed out what would happen, and in stead of coming back with an attitude, he replied that he knew, but his computer had locked up and he was sorting it out. I did have a couple of good fights but the problems started when I was trying to talk to another guy. He was RTBin   he said he had damage   no ammo   Its a fighting area, your suppose to fight, not run away, not land kills, FIGHT.

Then the peanut gallery started in (all the cool guys) defending this stuff. Whats the new guy suppose to do? Listen to the "old guy" trying to explain things, or join the "cool guys"?

I didn't mean to single out anyone. I was thinking alone the line that never before in AH existed a group with so much talent and right attitude as it does with DFC.
DFC alone can change a lot with just a mere presence in DA. You can bet that peanut gallery will figure out very quickly what's really cool when it comes to fighting in AH...

[DamnedRen]

SO running from a plane is fighting, circling at 12k over furball lake to pick is fighting.... hmmmm ok I guess I'll have to rethink this 

LOL point is when I've gone into DA there might be a few sputniks but they gotta come down to die and they eventually do

Well evidently when that host message pops up that says something about "... you have won the war and have been awarded point yada yada yada" This is what the new players are shooting for. They use what ever they can to get there as fast as they can. To me EVERYTIME I get into a fight I've won. Whether I die or the other guy dies really doesn't matter. Your fight with the pony is a great example. That is what the game is about.

LOL I got the part about winning the war....the fact that someone happens to have that as a goal is a good thing. They come to us to get kilt.


I'm not trying to "whine" I'm just pointing out what I see as a problem, maybe some good will come of it.

Lead by example. Unless we're in a real war, you lead I'll follow I had a youngster up in the TA last night.  He was helbent on shooting me down. He took up every single plane he could. Didn't help. I suspect he'll be up tonight asking for help. That really does work ya know