Ar 240

[Die Hard]

33Vortex, the Fw 187 was not the miracle plane you seem to think it was. Tank and Fw made the classic schoolboy mistake of writing an excellent paper, but on the wrong subject. The original Fw 187 did not fulfil the RLM requirements for a zerstörer heavy fighter. By the time Fw had modified the 187 with a second crew member (whom they could not find space to fit any defensive armament for, so he basically served no purpose) the Bf 110 was already in production, and the modified 187's performance did not warrant replacing the Bf 110. The Fw 187 program was also beset with problems; when they mounted DB 600 engines on it it did indeed set a speed record, but it came back wrinkled and bent, and the landing gear collapsed on landing. No doubt it was fast, but it was hardly a serviceable war plane.

The Fw 187 A-0 that went into limited production in the summer of 1939 had a top speed of 329 mph. The Bf 110C-1 already in production at the time had a top speed of 336 mph.

[Die Hard]

Speaking of hijacked threads, this looks like none other than the 187.

All that talent and they consistently picked the wrong horse...

I always wondered about the contention that the mixed-phase cooling system developed by Ernst Heinkel for the HE100 was "unsuitable for combat". This was purportedly due to the fact that steam tubes were run just behind the wing leading edge in order to provide cooling to the steam portion of the coolant. How is such a thing any more vulnerable than the radiator it replaced? Less draggy, certainly, but any more or less susceptible to the golden BB? I think not.

Otherwise, it's like I always say (and, in at least a couple of cases, have made use of here at Ford) - if you want to find an interesting approach to the solution of an engineering problem, do some research on Nazi weaponry.

Heinkel couldn't get the surface evaporation cooling system working properly before the war. By that time he had fallen out of favour with the Nazis.

[Motherland]

From what I've read about the He 100, it sounds like it was a superb propaganda aircraft, but it's probably a good thing that it never had to be operated on the front lines (especially in Russia!).

[vonKrimm]

From what I've read about the He 100, it sounds like it was a superb propaganda aircraft, but it's probably a good thing that it never had to be operated on the front lines (especially in Russia!).

What really killed it was politics (Messerschmidt to produce fighter & Heinkel to produce bombers) and lack of DB-601 engines (used by 109s & 110s), the Jumo-211 engine was just to weak in its early versions; not until the "D" series was the DB-601 available & installed on the He-100(iirc) & then the He-100 mostly lived up to its potential.  Another important factor was the elimination of the surface cooling system in the "D" series for a standard radiator system; the original system was to complex & prone to malfunctions.  It may be logically proposed that he He-100 would have changed some aspects of the early air war if it replaced the 109 &/or 110.  Longer range over the 109 (about 1/2 again as much, think BoB); better maneuverability & rate of production over the 110.

All in all it was evolutionarily ahead of the 109, but was not revolutionary enough to supplant the 109.

[Motherland]

Where do you get that it was more maneuverable than the 109? High wing loading was one of the reasons test pilots didn't like it, due to high landing speeds. This is a problem that not even the Fw 190 had, which is one of the worst turning fighters in the game...

What killed the Luftwaffe in the BoB was poor tactical and strategic decisions, lack of fighters and the short range of Luftwaffe aircraft. The He 100 would have only helped one of these areas, and would have made the lack of fighters even worse, as even if the He 100 could have been produced as fast as the 109 (which I doubt), one of the ingenious points of the Bf 109 and other Messerschmitt designs was that they were easily serviced in the field, whereas the He 100 was the opposite of this.

I think the He 100 would have probably have been like the MiG 1/3; sleek, sexy and fast, a good propaganda tool, but a dog of a fighter, and I doubt it would have been able to make any positive difference over the 109, which proved to be a very versatile design, considering it was still one of the best propeller fighters in the world on May 9th 1945, which was WELL passed the point where it was supposed to be phased out.

[33Vortex]

33Vortex, the Fw 187 was not the miracle plane you seem to think it was. Tank and Fw made the classic schoolboy mistake of writing an excellent paper, but on the wrong subject. The original Fw 187 did not fulfil the RLM requirements for a zerstörer heavy fighter. By the time Fw had modified the 187 with a second crew member (whom they could not find space to fit any defensive armament for, so he basically served no purpose) the Bf 110 was already in production, and the modified 187's performance did not warrant replacing the Bf 110. The Fw 187 program was also beset with problems; when they mounted DB 600 engines on it it did indeed set a speed record, but it came back wrinkled and bent, and the landing gear collapsed on landing. No doubt it was fast, but it was hardly a serviceable war plane.

The Fw 187 A-0 that went into limited production in the summer of 1939 had a top speed of 329 mph. The Bf 110C-1 already in production at the time had a top speed of 336 mph.

No plane is a miracle plane, it is a matter of development. Sure the 110 had matured as a design, the 187 had not. That 7 mph difference you're pointing at does not prove the 187 as a design was inferior to the 110. I wonder what engines the 329 mph 187 had and, what was used in the 110C-1 again? What I'm getting at is that the potential of the 187 for the role the 110 was intended far surpassed the 110, but nobody realized or acknowledged that. How useful was that rear gunner on the 110, really? The 110 was a failure as a fighter and the records from 1940 prove it. The 187 was a design that did not meet the official requirements true but it would have fared better than the 110 in combat I would dare say. Serviceability is indeed a big factor but a bigger factor is whether a/c return home from a combat sortie or not.

[Die Hard]

No plane is a miracle plane, it is a matter of development. Sure the 110 had matured as a design, the 187 had not. That 7 mph difference you're pointing at does not prove the 187 as a design was inferior to the 110. I wonder what engines the 329 mph 187 had and, what was used in the 110C-1 again? What I'm getting at is that the potential of the 187 for the role the 110 was intended far surpassed the 110, but nobody realized or acknowledged that. How useful was that rear gunner on the 110, really? The 110 was a failure as a fighter and the records from 1940 prove it. The 187 was a design that did not meet the official requirements true but it would have fared better than the 110 in combat I would dare say. Serviceability is indeed a big factor but a bigger factor is whether a/c return home from a combat sortie or not.

The Fw 187 had already exceeded its potential by 1939, it struggled to take the power of its new engines, there was no room to spare in the cockpit, the landing gear could not handle the increase in weight. The Fw 187 was engineered right on the edge of what 1937 technology could do, but in doing so it had no development potential. It had no internal space to grow in therms of armament and equipment. The structure had little or nothing to go on when adding bigger, heavier engines and more equipment. The skin of the aircraft was so thin that it wrinkled at high speed, and the structure deformed. The Fw 187 was designed like a racing plane, not a military aircraft.

The Bf 110 got its arse haded to it in the Battle of Britain. However that did not make it a failure as a fighter, no matter how much TV historians like to think so. The Bf 110 served admirably on the eastern front, Mediterranean, North Africa and the Middle-East. And even in the Battle of Britain the 110 didn't fare as badly as many likes to think. It was clearly inferior to the Spitfire, but also superior to the Hurricane. During August and September 1940 the 110C Gruppen claimed 213 enemy aircraft destroyed (9 of those are night claims) for the loss of 199 Bf-110C to enemy action (+10 losses in non operational flights and 12 in landing accidents). Remember that for the most part the 110C was ordered to fly close escort during the Battle of Britain; in such a situation the 110 was robbed of its advantages and heavily exposed to all its weaknesses, most notably the low acceleration and large target size. The Fw 187 would not have fared any better.

[vonKrimm]

Where do you get that it was more maneuverable than the 109? High wing loading was one of the reasons test pilots didn't like it, due to high landing speeds. This is a problem that not even the Fw 190 had, which is one of the worst turning fighters in the game...

I'm not flaunting rules 3 & 4 in this reply (which will be the last I say of the He-100).  I never said if was a better turner than the 109.  The use of a ";" clearly delineates two separate thoughts in the sentace where you thought you read such a statement from me.  Yes it had a high landing speed, a fact I am fully aware; a problem that further development could compensate for readily.

What killed the Luftwaffe in the BoB was poor tactical and strategic decisions, lack of fighters and the short range of Luftwaffe aircraft. The He 100 would have only helped one of these areas, and would have made the lack of fighters even worse, as even if the He 100 could have been produced as fast as the 109 (which I doubt), one of the ingenious points of the Bf 109 and other Messerschmidt designs was that they were easily serviced in the field, whereas the He 100 was the opposite of this.

It was only the last point of your 1st sentence to which I was speaking.  i thought it would be intuitive to most that greater endurance would equate to more dogfights amongst the fighters.  A possible benefit to the LW as the RAF was hampered by lack of pilots in the BoB.  I apologize if anyone thought I meant that the He 100 could have changed the outcome of the BoB on its own.  Your last sentence is poignant in that the ease of service was was a fantastic hallmark of the 109 series, possible it was a contributing factor in changing the He 100 from a surface cooling system to a simple radiator system.

I think the He 100 would have probably have been like the MiG 1/3; sleek, sexy and fast, a good propaganda tool, but a dog of a fighter, and I doubt it would have been able to make any positive difference over the 109, which proved to be a very versatile design, considering it was still one of the best propeller fighters in the world on May 9th 1945, which was WELL passed the point where it was supposed to be phased out.

The design of the He 100 dates to the late '30s, same as the 109; just as the 109 series evolved from the toddler 109e to the hottie 109k, I'm sure the He 100 could have adapted just as readily and maintained a standard compareable to opposition aircraft.

[Die Hard]

Von Krimm, you need to check your facts better. The He 100 was Heinkel's attempt at designing a fighter that was a generation after the 109. The 109's future replacement if you will. He started designing the 100 after the 109 had been chosen by the RLM its next single-seat fighter over the He 112. The 109 is an early-1930s design, and was in production in 1936.

[vonKrimm]

Von Krimm, you need to check your facts better. The He 100 was Heinkel's attempt at designing a fighter that was a generation after the 109. The 109's future replacement if you will. He started designing the 100 after the 109 had been chosen by the RLM its next single-seat fighter over the He 112. The 109 is an early-1930s design, and was in production in 1936.

My facts are fine; the 109 was designed to meet RLM specification Rustungsfluzueg-IV issued by T-Amt in 1933 asking for 3 prototypes for evaluation in late 1934.  Thus, the 109 is a mid-30's design, not an early-30's design ('30-'32 = early; '33-'35 = mid; '36-'39 =late), since you seem inclined to split hairs.  Yes, Ernst Heinkel did see the 100 as a replacement for the 109, the 'D' models.  The He 100 was superior to the 'D' models, but the 109 continued to be an exceptional platform for development; so the He 100 never attained the revolution over the 109 that the Heinkel brothers were aiming for but instead were evolutionary superior to the 109.  Which is what I said in my 1st post regarding the He 100.

Had your tone not been so confrontatonal, I would have been able to keep to the part in my last post about it being the last I would say on the matter; since you felt the need to be summarily derogatory towards me, "...check your facts better."  If you feel the need to "educate" myself & others, post a link to a source and add some helpful words to guide us to the materials.  Book titles & authors are also great ways to help people out; ISBN numbers are even better.

[Die Hard]

No, I'm not going to argue semantics with you. The T-Amt's R-IV request was distributed in May 1934, and the test flights were made in 1935. Please, at least get something right. You could even wiki this information and get it right.

Messerschmitt on the other hand started designing the 108 and 109 in 1931 based on an earlier single engine trainer design and incorporated Messerschmitt's new lightweight construction principle. The 108 racer and the 109 fighter were developed simultaneously with emphasis on the 108 of course since in 1933 the Luftwaffe asked the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke and other aircraft manufacturers to design a racer to take part in the 4th Challenge de Tourisme Internationale air race. The 108 flew in 1934, and the next year, in May 1935, the Bf 109V-1 first flew.

In 1936 Ernst Heikel started designing the He 100, and in 1938 it first flew.

[vonKrimm]

Your post reminded me of something, despite its boorish nature; aircraft evolve from concept to prototype to initial production.  After all, the original 109 plans (iirc) called for only two 7.9mm MGs and a 700HP-ish Jumo 210 engine (infact, I seem to recall the 1st prototype had a British engine in it); obviously changes were made from the "early/mid" '30s plans.

Which brings me to my newest point and the topic of this thread, the Ar240:  Just as Kurt Tank created interest by designing/redesigning the 190 (also the LW had concerns about the 109 series keeping pace w/ enemy a/c) with a radial engine, might the LW have expressed a serious interest in the Ar 240 if it had used a engine that did not compete with 110 production needs?  The same could be espoused for the FW 187.  Intersting how Willie kept those a/c that he viewed as a threat to his firm's a/c from maturing. [the preceeding is entirely speculative and no facts were consulted.  wiki or otherwise.]

[Die Hard]

Intersting how Willie kept those a/c that he viewed as a threat to his firm's a/c from maturing.

Yes it's very interesting. How exactly did he do that pray tell?

[33Vortex]

Interesting discussion but I think you should leave your egos out of it.

In late '43 Focke-Wulf had the Ta152 A and B on the table, ready to hit production. The RLM was looking for a replacement fighter for the ageing zerstörer (Bf110) fleet and the 110 was planned to be retired in 1944. The Ta152 A and B would fit the bill as both types could carry a maximum armament of no less than 9 cannons of which up to 7 could be of 30 mm caliber. A heavy hitter for sure and although single engine, could replace the Bf110 in the zerstörer role as it was significantly faster and carried heavier armament. The A was intended as a pure fighter while the B would be the one intended for the zerstörer role, although the types were virtually much the same aircraft.

Nonetheless, the RLM did not grant the Ta152 A/B production status despite the types being fully developed ready to be put in production. Instead they had eyes set on Messerschmitt's 209, which was in early development. The 209 program however was troubled with delays and ultimately cancelled because of problems unknown to me. As a result of all this the Bf110 was retired without a replacement. At that point it was already mid-44 and the RLM started looking for a emergency solution to the acute need for daytime fighters, and so the 190D-9 was put in production as a stop-gap measure before the Ta152 H and C models could enter production. We all know that by now it was too late, and only the H saw limited service before the end of hostilities and despite many claims of the C having entered production, there is seemingly no hard evidence to be found to support those claims.

This is all from the book 'Focke-Wulf Ta152' a 4+ publication by Malcolm V. Lowe published in 2008. ISBN 978-80-86637-07-5



What I'm getting at here is that the RLM favoritism towards Willie Messerschmitt cost the Luftwaffe dearly, and consequently the german arms industry suffered as well. To me Willie Messerschmitt was just another overthunk, who only cared for making money on this war. He was certainly not the only one.

Edit: for readability, english is not my first language

[Die Hard]

You still haven't explained how Willy Messerschmitt "kept those a/c that he viewed as a threat to his firm's a/c from maturing." You're making character assassinations based on faulty or non-existent data.

Btw. The replacement for the Bf 110 was the Me 210/410. Entered service in 1942 and remained in production until the summer of 1944 and the implementation of the "emergency fighter program." It did not replace the 110 in the night-fighter role however as the 110's performance was considered sufficient for that role.