Author Topic: BoF  (Read 2028 times)

Offline Marauding Conan

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Re: BoF
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2009, 11:39:52 AM »
It was not a matter of whether the air force was independent or a branch of the army, and to offer that as an explanation for why they didn't attack jammed supply lines implies the most ridiculous stupidity.  They didn't attack them because they couldn't; the Luftwaffe had command of the air almost as soon as the battle begun.  Hence, my question as to whether the Luftwaffe's air superiority over France could have been prevented, maybe even mitigated to air parity, had the RAF deployed in full strength in France before May 1940.

Again, to me, that the RAF wasn't deployed in full strength in France is symptomatic of more general lukewarm effort to defend allied nations, with France being equally culpable.  The Poles were abandoned to their fate, the Finns fought the Russians alone, they made a desultory attempt to help the Norwegians, and then, when it came down to the two strongest powers that hadn't really bothered to defend their weakest allies, they displayed the same flaccidity toward each other.

Lastly, the US was ready to watch the UK surrender to Germany.  This is a fact.  It's a disheartening chapter in the history of the west.

Again, I disagree. The RAF was not fully equipped to match the Luftwaffe in the Battle of France, nor was it in the Battle of Britain.

The fact of the matter is that the Luftwaffe was fully modernised with over 5,600 +/- planes against a combined force (that is French, British, Belgians and Dutch) of mostly outdated or outclassed totalling 2,900 +/- planes. Overall, I think the pilots of the allies air forces accounted well for themselves if you consider that they still accounted for 1,600 +/- of the Luftwaffe planes with loosing themselves of 2,000 +/- planes. That is pretty even outcome considering the disparity of quality of planes and numbers. So, to say that the Luftwaffe achieved air superiority... again, if they would have concentrated the forces to hit particular areas instead of spreading them throughout the front line, I can see them decimating the supply lines. But, they weren't, they were spread under the command of the ground forces... who didn't care about hitting targets beyond its tactical area.

As to the issue of the RAF, my point is that had the Armee de L'air been independent, better equipped, and better organized, it could have have held the Luftwaffe at bay. But, it wasn't, and a few antiquated British planes would not have made much of a difference when the bulk of the air forces would have still been French.

Just looking at the disposition of the RAF in the Battle of Britain, the numbers again show an unprepared air force. 1,900 +/- British planes versus 4,000 +/- Luftwaffe planes. The difference of numbers in the Luftwaffe shows its losses in the Battle of France. Although the Luftwaffe lost 1,800 +/- planes, the RAF lost 1,500 +/- planes. It was fighting over a smaller area, over its own territory, without a worry about ground support, and it still nearly collapsed, and with better planes than while in France. It just was not going to make much of a difference in France.

I do agree that it was a sad episode, made even sadder by the lack of better leader prior to the war when it could have made all the difference in preparing and reorganizing both the RAF and the Armee de l'Air, and for that matter, the ground forces too.

Offline Marauding Conan

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Re: BoF
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2009, 11:40:50 AM »
Not all know this, but the LEND-LEASE deal only passed through congress with marginal majority. And that was...in 1941.
Anyway, I don't quite go with the BEF being half-hearted in France, nor the RAF. They were simply beaten, and as Dowding coldly put it, the RAF would have stopped existing as a fighting force in a couple of weeks or so for the loss rates they were suffering. The whole defence of France was a disaster once the Germans had managed to flank the French and British and their speedy armour and close ground support owned the fields.
BTW, if I recall right, the French airforce actually sported impressive numbers ...

Well, they were certainly impressive at the end  :aok

Offline 68Wooley

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Re: BoF
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2009, 01:10:19 PM »
Something to consider.

About half of the RAF squadrons committed to France were strike / light bomber squadrons. On May 10th 1940 (the first day of the battle), there were 8 or 9 squadrons of Fairey Battles and 5 squadrons of Bristol Blenheims. The Blenheim ultimately proved reasonably successful as a night fighter, but in 1940 was obsolescent a daytime light bomber. Casualties were high. The Fairey Battle was an unmitigated disaster with casualties on some raids, notably the attacks on the bridges over the Meuse at Sedan resulting in almost 100% losses for some squadrons.

A further 6 squadrons were army co-operation units flying Lysanders.

That left only 7 squadrons of Hurricanes and 2 mixed Hurricane / Gloster Gladiator squadrons (the Gladiator being a fixed undercarriage biplane). That's about 96 modern fighters. The only real surprise then is that they made as much of a dent in the Luftwaffe as they did.

Anaxogoras has questioned Britain and France's commitment to defending Poland. I'm curious as to how - in 1939 or early 1940, either country could have done much to intervene?


Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: BoF
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2009, 01:27:53 PM »
Anaxogoras has questioned Britain and France's commitment to defending Poland. I'm curious as to how - in 1939 or early 1940, either country could have done much to intervene?

Invade Germany.
gavagai
334th FS


RPS for Aces High!

Offline Marauding Conan

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Re: BoF
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2009, 01:51:51 PM »
Invade Germany.

In 1936, sure! Afterward, the best bet would have been to bring the full resources of the French Empire, which would have taken time... time the Germans didn't give the French.

Offline fudgums

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Re: BoF
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2009, 02:08:35 PM »
In 1939- Early 1940 Conan not 1936
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27

Offline Angus

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Re: BoF
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2009, 04:18:22 PM »
As I mentioned, the French did indeed occupy a slice of Saarland in 1939. The Germans, AFAIK actually had evacuated the area. However there was no further plan of pushing in, so the French just left again.
The French plan was basically defensive, trusting on their Maginot line. There was no particular plan for flanks, supporting the Netherlands, nor a proper air defence system as the British were building. So, once the Germans came with their Blitz, it was all shambles....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: BoF
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2009, 11:04:55 AM »
French air force order of battle on the 10th of may, 1940:
http://france1940.free.fr/adla/ada_may.html

Quite a few....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Marauding Conan

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Re: BoF
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2009, 11:33:26 AM »
French air force order of battle on the 10th of may, 1940:
http://france1940.free.fr/adla/ada_may.html

Quite a few....

Yeah, I have seen that. Shame it's not in a spreadsheet format, so that we can filter through some data... No way I am gonna spend time sorting through all that.

Offline Angus

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Re: BoF
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2009, 04:22:31 PM »
Was hoping you would save be the trouble  :devil
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline 68Wooley

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Re: BoF
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2009, 01:52:59 AM »
To break it down:

The Dewoitine 520 (with which one squadron was equipped) was just about match for the 109E. The rest were outclassed although the Moraine gave a reasonable account of itself.

Offline 68Wooley

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Re: BoF
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2009, 02:01:20 AM »
Invade Germany.

How?

  • France and Britain wore woefully ill-prepared to fight a war with Germany in 1939 after 20 years of military cutbacks.
  • The Siegfried line was far more formidable than the opposing Maginot Line
  • France and Britain didn't (or chose not to) have the option of advancing through the Benelux countries.

Offline Angus

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Re: BoF
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2009, 02:30:04 AM »
To break it down:

The Dewoitine 520 (with which one squadron was equipped) was just about match for the 109E. The rest were outclassed although the Moraine gave a reasonable account of itself.

CC, the D520, then the MS, but don't forget the Curtiss Hawk ;)
AFAIK, in the BoF (As well as the blitzkrieg across the Netherlands), not all of the 109's were even the E model, as well as the air being thick with 110's, Ju87's, possibly Henchel bipes and Ju52's (of whom many were lost in Holland). So in short, fighting the LW didn't just mean jostling with the 109....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Marauding Conan

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Re: BoF
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2009, 03:51:06 AM »
Was hoping you would save be the trouble  :devil
Nice try  :aok but, it ain't gonna happen.

Offline Marauding Conan

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Re: BoF
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2009, 03:53:12 AM »
How?

  • France and Britain wore woefully ill-prepared to fight a war with Germany in 1939 after 20 years of military cutbacks.
  • The Siegfried line was far more formidable than the opposing Maginot Line
  • France and Britain didn't (or chose not to) have the option of advancing through the Benelux countries.

Those points are ussually over looked. I agree, no way it would accomplish much other than get a lot of soldiers killed assaulting the front door of fortifications.