BoF

[Anaxogoras]

Because of hindsight, we have to say that attacking nonetheless was the better choice; excluding the mentioned fortifications Germany's west was lightly defended during their attack on Poland.

Or, if I take the opposing position, then France and the UK had no business telling Poland "we'll protect you."

[Angus]

They were slow in thinking and neither expected Poland to fall so fast, nor France. After all, the German advance tactics were Blitzy-Genious.

[Marauding Conan]

Or, if I take the opposing position, then France and the UK had no business telling Poland "we'll protect you."

Yeah, the whole thing was prepostruous. The French knew that it would take a while to rebuild their arms industry in order to match the German's industries... but in the other hand, give Germany a free hand in Eastern Europe and it would be difficult to match them in the long run. Tough call.

But, for the British, it was different, if they waited until 1942, the German navy would have presented a serious treath to the Royal Navy, so, the quicker, the better.

At the end, all they (France, GB and Germany) acomplished was to self-destruct.

[Angus]

Not so sure of all that. I'd rather say that the western powers were hoping that the Germans would bog-down in Poland, and were stunned by the swift victory. There wasn't much they could have done about it anyway, except engaging in an offensive into Germany, - something never planned at all. And the horrors of WWI were still alive in everybody's mind.
Actually, the British were DISARMING almost to the outbreak of WW2, and Churchill, predicting the agressions and evilness of the Nazis (as well as claiming it being worse than communism) was frequently named a "warmonger" or somthing of that sort.
As for the German Navy, it "could" have made a little threat if it would have kept hidden until the capital ships were ready.  One TG is yet little compared to what the RN was sporting. And before 1942 there were far bigger events at work...
And where did GB self-destruct???? Not getting you M8....

[Anaxogoras]

Well, you can argue that WW2 caused GB to diminish from global empire to side-kick of the US.

[Marauding Conan]

Not so sure of all that. I'd rather say that the western powers were hoping that the Germans would bog-down in Poland, and were stunned by the swift victory. There wasn't much they could have done about it anyway, except engaging in an offensive into Germany, - something never planned at all. And the horrors of WWI were still alive in everybody's mind.
Actually, the British were DISARMING almost to the outbreak of WW2, and Churchill, predicting the agressions and evilness of the Nazis (as well as claiming it being worse than communism) was frequently named a "warmonger" or somthing of that sort.
As for the German Navy, it "could" have made a little threat if it would have kept hidden until the capital ships were ready.  One TG is yet little compared to what the RN was sporting. And before 1942 there were far bigger events at work...
And where did GB self-destruct???? Not getting you M8....

1.-Yes, the quick collapse of Polland was surprising. But France was not where near as industrialised as Germany in 1939. Keep in Mind that Germany was the most advanced, industrialised mobilised country in Europe. France needed time to "modernised" their factories in order to produce at the same level as the Germans... and the Germans factories weren't even at full capacity yet. When they occupied Chzecoslovakia, Germany gained great industrial capacities. Occupying Poland would have increase it even more. That's why France needed time to bring their investment into their own factories and American factories into fruition.

France needed time to mobilise the full human resources of its empire... Germany was already mobilised. And when it comes to technology, well, under-investment placed the French army at a disadvantace.

2.-The Kriegsmarine was engaged in a program of ship-building. It was fortcasted that by 1942 it could match the Royal Navy. But, because the war started in 1939, all they could hope was to conduct bucaneer operations. Remember, at the time, you can defeate the British only if you could stop the Royal Navy from controlling the sea, even if you never set foot in Britain.

3.-Both France and GB ended up bankrupt after WWII. So heavily in debt to the US and unable to mantain their empires that they went from World leaders, to tennant of empires that ended up tearing themsleves to pieces which could not impose its will over its own territory. As for Germany, well, it went from the most advance country in Europe to a country occupied for over 50 years by 4 foreign countries.... least we say about the rubble in the Germans cities (1945), the better off we are.

[Angus]

I will give some time on this later, but there are many points where I completely disagree with you bud....

[68Wooley]

2.-The Kriegsmarine was engaged in a program of ship-building. It was fortcasted that by 1942 it could match the Royal Navy. But, because the war started in 1939, all they could hope was to conduct bucaneer operations. Remember, at the time, you can defeate the British only if you could stop the Royal Navy from controlling the sea, even if you never set foot in Britain.

Even as it was, the Kriegsmarine was the branch of the German military that came closest to taking Britain out of the war.

[MiloMorai]

Even as it was, the Kriegsmarine was the branch of the German military that came closest to taking Britain out of the war.

Do you mean the U-boat component of the KM?

[Anaxogoras]

Do you mean the U-boat component of the KM?

Has to be.

[Angus]

Even as it was, the Kriegsmarine was the branch of the German military that came closest to taking Britain out of the war.

True. But they could not face the British on the surface, nor did they manage to lift the RN's embargo on German ships. Basically, Germany could have bought goods from the USA until 1941, - there was nothing American to prevent that (!), however, they could not get their stuff past the RN.
For the Axis to threaten the RN on the surface, they would have needed the combined forces of the Kriegsmarine, the Italan navy and the Vichy fleet. That would be a force far stronger than what the kriegsmarine "could have" sported in 1940, and this would have been at the time of the BoB. In the fall of 1940.
One key there would have been getting Gibraltar out of British hands, or win a naval superiority in the med before, which could have happened with the combined Vichy forces and the Italian navy vs the RN. This was the Axis thought, and this was exactly what Churchill also concluded. Clever guy who made some tough decisions...

[E25280]

How?

• France and Britain wore woefully ill-prepared to fight a war with Germany in 1939 after 20 years of military cutbacks.
• The Siegfried line was far more formidable than the opposing Maginot Line
• France and Britain didn't (or chose not to) have the option of advancing through the Benelux countries.
  

The Westwall was an empty shell in 1939 and 40, barely more than a string of pillboxes.  It was not even close to the Maginot Line.

The vast majority of Germany's forces were in Poland in September 39.  If the point of declaring war against Germany was to come to Poland's aid, to say France and Britain did a poor job is a monumental understatement.  They provided not one iota of pressure against Germany in the west.

[Angus]

It sucks not to have an offensive plan
Britain belived in their Navy, the French in their wall. And neither belived that the Polish would buckle so fast.
There is one factor here that seems to be ignored. Germany and the USSR were allies.

[Anaxogoras]

It sucks not to have an offensive plan
Britain belived in their Navy, the French in their wall. And neither belived that the Polish would buckle so fast.
There is one factor here that seems to be ignored. Germany and the USSR were allies.

Which is why France and the UK were also obliged to declare war on the USSR, but they didn't.

[fudgums]

If they did, wouldnt that be interesting