Author Topic: The Deadliest Warrior  (Read 2170 times)

Offline Anodizer

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2009, 04:14:52 PM »
Lightsaber pwns all.


Totally....... :rock
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Offline Sikboy

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2009, 04:19:07 PM »
First of all, to use information gathered from a severely flawed TV show is invalid..  The show is for entertainment purposes..  Much like the show Dogfights..
You think that show is viable as well?  

Frankly, I'm on vacation at the moment and don't feel the time or need to cite information.  All I know is the information I've read about and spoken to others
in the Kendo community, of which I am a part of as well as research I've done on my own regarding Medieval martial arts and weaponry..

Also, you posted a video of two gentlemen fight with nothing more than wooden analogues of a Katana and Longsword..  Neither are wearing traditional armor..
Neither seems properly schooled, especially the guy wielding the Bokken..  To compare something on this is as well as a TV show......well.....  It's not right...

What other kinds of information to find accurate as far as TV and YouTube is concerned?

Just so I understand here... You're flat our refusing to bring any sources into the discussion, and then you're "outing" Sax for the ones he has admitted are weak, but happen to be available?

I have no dog in this fight. I'm vaguely interested in swords and combat. I'm intrigued by the amount of deference we (Americans anyhow) give to Asian Martial Arts while not giving European Martial Arts Much credit (I think it really comes down to inadvertent racists nobilizing the savage, but that's just me). Anyhow, I don't know Sax at all, but he's pwning  the discussion from my chair.

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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2009, 04:21:37 PM »
The point of those videos is to show that this wasn't a lumbering hunk of metal. It's quick, and it's agile, and your argument about it being unwieldly is BEYOND ludicrously misinformed, if not blatantly prejudiced. It doesn't take demonstrating techniques AGAINST a katana to show that.

This is a versatile tool that can take on the qualities of a two-handed sword, short spear, bill, pick, mace/hammer. Literally every part of this sword was a weapon and could be used in the attack, which is something the more specialized katana can't claim.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 04:51:08 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Anodizer

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2009, 04:50:50 PM »
I truly could care less who owns the discussion....  Obviously there is bias on both sides of the argument.. 
I could probably find thousands of bits of information supporting both claims.. 
Longswords I've seen and handled were heavy..  They could not be wielded in such a fluid and circular way
as a Katana..  To me, they seem more like thin metal clubs with a pointed tip..  They don't seem especially sharp for having
double edges..    Not to say they weren't created with the same precision and workmanship as a Katana..  Of course they were!  They were good for their uses, I'm sure..

Compared to a Katana, it is cumbersome, heavy, and unwieldy..
Using common sense while looking at the two can tell you that...

Also, sickboy, I'm on vacation with my family away from any information resources besides the internet...
Frankly, I'm in enough trouble as it is just being on here and not in bed with my wife....
I like classy, beautiful, intelligent woman that say the "F" word a lot....

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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2009, 05:00:01 PM »
I truly could care less who owns the discussion....  Obviously there is bias on both sides of the argument.. 
I could probably find thousands of bits of information supporting both claims.. 
Longswords I've seen and handled were heavy..  They could not be wielded in such a fluid and circular way
as a Katana..  To me, they seem more like thin metal clubs with a pointed tip..  They don't seem especially sharp for having
double edges..    Not to say they weren't created with the same precision and workmanship as a Katana..  Of course they were!  They were good for their uses, I'm sure..

Compared to a Katana, it is cumbersome, heavy, and unwieldy..
Using common sense while looking at the two can tell you that...

Also, sickboy, I'm on vacation with my family away from any information resources besides the internet...
Frankly, I'm in enough trouble as it is just being on here and not in bed with my wife....


You accuse me of never seeing a real katana and are going by cheap imitations or stainless examples.

I can tell from your post RIGHT THERE that's all you've ever seen and it shows.

My steel practice sword has a 40" blade and 13" hilt. It's a blunted blade ~1/16" thick (it's designed for steel-on-steel drilling, we're not there to cut with it). Blade is about 2" wide at the hilt, tapered to a blunted point. It weighs THREE POUNDS. 3lbs. 3#. That's NO MORE than what a Katana would weigh. The point of balance is precisely 3" ahead of the guard. It's beautiful, perfectly balanced. If I'd had it made with a true cutting edge rather than as a practice blade it could have been even LIGHTER (I can't WAIT until I get around to having my cutter made. I'm gonna go all out, even a stitched leather wrap for the grip instead of glued on, and peened tang rather than the bolt :-P~ ~ ~ ).

Don't judge by those 5lb knockoffs and Kit Rae monstrosities.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mechanic

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2009, 05:06:28 PM »
cool fights with the wooden swords Sax. That samurai was bigger than the viking though :)
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Offline Sikboy

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2009, 05:27:13 PM »


Also, sickboy, I'm on vacation with my family away from any information resources besides the internet...
Frankly, I'm in enough trouble as it is just being on here and not in bed with my wife....


There's no problem with not having access to materials, however you would do well to refrain from bagging on other sources if you don't have your own.

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Offline morfiend

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2009, 07:22:44 PM »
If I may,I'd like to keep this going,the Katana vs European sword debate has been going on for years.Who would win is impossible to tell,too many variables,but to those who hold the Katana in it's vaulted place I'd like to say"Saxman is correct".What I mean is the Katana is limited,while you can thrust with it thats not it's proper use.It has a curved blade,that serves 2 purposes 1 to lengthen the cutting edge and 2 to add leverage to the slicing stroke.Now don't get me wrong, a well forged Katana is a work of art and almost mystical.

 That said the European sword(s) were just as efficient as the Oriental sword(s) maybe the care taken in forging wasn't quite up to the Oriental standards but then again the design was such that it may not of been needed.The longsword,if I can use that term,was designed to cut and thrust and as such it was more versatile than the Katana and when used with sheild or dagger maybe more deadly than the Oriental sword(s).

ps: I know the longsword is a 2 hander it was just easier than saying European swords......


Plz continue gents.. :salute

Offline ink

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2009, 07:50:57 PM »
First of all, to use information gathered from a severely flawed TV show is invalid..  The show is for entertainment purposes..  Much like the show Dogfights..
You think that show is viable as well?  

Frankly, I'm on vacation at the moment and don't feel the time or need to cite information.  All I know is the information I've read about and spoken to others
in the Kendo community, of which I am a part of as well as research I've done on my own regarding Medieval martial arts and weaponry..

Also, you posted a video of two gentlemen fight with nothing more than wooden analogues of a Katana and Longsword..  Neither are wearing traditional armor..
Neither seems properly schooled, especially the guy wielding the Bokken..  To compare something on this is as well as a TV show......well.....  It's not right...

What other kinds of information to find accurate as far as TV and YouTube is concerned?

I stopped paying attention to the tard.
typical person who cant see beyond his own nose.


Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2009, 07:51:29 PM »
They could not be wielded in such a fluid and circular way
as a Katana..  To me, they seem more like thin metal clubs with a pointed tip..  They don't seem especially sharp for having
double edges..    Not to say they weren't created with the same precision and workmanship as a Katana..  Of course they were!  They were good for their uses, I'm sure..

Compared to a Katana, it is cumbersome, heavy, and unwieldy..
Using common sense while looking at the two can tell you that...


With the energy you can put behind a sword sharpness is irrelevant. A blunt edged sword will cut bone and flesh just as easily as a sharp edged sword. However against armor (especially metal armor) a thin, broad blunt edged european sword is far superior to the thick, but sharp Japanese swords.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFQ4aanmupU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vleC5-tvx4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIsec-MTGwU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v4j3mvrDyQ&NR=1



As for speed and maneuverability, here's one of the heaviest European swords, a Claymore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDoJ6kZyKis

Longsword: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvYsjmdac00

Plate armor and two-handed great sword: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6IL2giKNN8


A veteran Viking or a European Knight would own a Samurai. The Japanese fighting arts were too ritualized to compete with the European renaissance fighting arts which were bred from actual combat and war with other cultures. That Japan still exists and is not part of a greater Korea is just a fluke of history.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 08:03:30 PM by Die Hard »
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Offline ink

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2009, 08:05:48 PM »

With the energy you can put behind a sword sharpness is irrelevant. A blunt edged sword will cut bone and flesh just as easily as a sharp edged sword. However against armor (especially metal armor) a thin, broad blunt edged european sword is far superior to the thick, but sharp Japanese swords.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFQ4aanmupU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vleC5-tvx4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIsec-MTGwU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v4j3mvrDyQ&NR=1



As for speed and maneuverability, here's one of the heaviest European swords, a Claymore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDoJ6kZyKis

Longsword: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvYsjmdac00

Plate armor and two-handed great sword: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6IL2giKNN8


A veteran Viking or a European Knight would own a Samurai. The Japanese fighting arts were too ritualized to compete with the European renaissance fighting arts which were bred from actual combat and war with other cultures. That Japan still exists and is not part of a greater Korea is just a fluke of history.

sharpness irrelevant? 

ok I'm done, not gonna argue with stupid any more, dragging me down to there level and beating me with experience.




Offline Die Hard

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2009, 08:09:49 PM »
sharpness irrelevant? 

Yes. All european war swords were blunt edged. Why do you think that was?

It's not like they couldn't sharpen a blade.  :lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYvwEnKRjA
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 08:14:48 PM by Die Hard »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2009, 08:26:37 PM »
If I may,I'd like to keep this going,the Katana vs European sword debate has been going on for years.Who would win is impossible to tell,too many variables,but to those who hold the Katana in it's vaulted place I'd like to say"Saxman is correct".What I mean is the Katana is limited,while you can thrust with it thats not it's proper use.It has a curved blade,that serves 2 purposes 1 to lengthen the cutting edge and 2 to add leverage to the slicing stroke.Now don't get me wrong, a well forged Katana is a work of art and almost mystical.

 That said the European sword(s) were just as efficient as the Oriental sword(s) maybe the care taken in forging wasn't quite up to the Oriental standards but then again the design was such that it may not of been needed.The longsword,if I can use that term,was designed to cut and thrust and as such it was more versatile than the Katana and when used with sheild or dagger maybe more deadly than the Oriental sword(s).

ps: I know the longsword is a 2 hander it was just easier than saying European swords......


Plz continue gents.. :salute

A lot of attention is focused on steel in Japanese swords, but they ignore the fact that European swords use much of the same construction technique. The steel may not have been as high quality as the best of the Japanese swords, but people have been creating this mythical level of disparity between them based on poor reproductions of Western swords for decades. In fact the EXACT same myths have been applied to Muslim swords cutting through the swords of Crusaders! There's an OBSESSION with people making out Medieval Western Europe as this backwards and uncouth period in history when compared to the Middle East and East, when the reality is far more complex. There are known historical European swords that could rival some VERY good Japanese blades in quality, just as there were inevitably Japanese swords of poorer make than what was being made concurrently in Europe.

The longsword and katana were designed for two very different purposes. The katana was designed primarily for slicing cuts, which it did very well. The longsword wasn't as effective but wasn't useless for slicing, either--there's a TON of application of draw cuts in the Liechtenauer tradition. It wouldn't be in there if it wasn't sharp enough to execute them--but was designed primarily for cleaving. The longsword began to evolve when mail started to become more widespread, (in the early medieval period it was only worn by wealthier warriors, and began to become more common during the later part of the Crusades) so the increased size of the sword and the lengthening of the hilt to allow two hands for increased power definitely provided a capability of smashing through mail. At the same time, the tip began to taper more making it ideal for thrusting. The balance of the sword (and I mean the REAL ones, not the cheap knockoffs meant to hang on a wall. If you're paying under $400 be VERY careful at what you're looking at. My practice sword was over $600) was superb, generally balancing within 3-4" of the guard, making the sword's pivot point very close to the front hand. With the back hand at the pommel the sword is very quick and responsive to changes in direction (I personally prefer a somewhat longer handle with a scent-stopper pommel, allowing me a better grip with the rear hand and more leverage for this purpose).

But it's a SERIOUS disservice to the sword to completely discount its versatility beyond the cut and thrust, which Anodizer is doing by balking at the videos I posted because they either used wasters and bokken, or were demonstrating against another longsword. I like to think of the longsword as the swiss army knife of the Medieval battlefield. Functionally, it's a two-handed sword. In a pinch, shorter examples (particularly the bastard sword of the later middle ages) could also be used with a shield. With the use of half-sword it becomes short thrusting spear/staff, with exceptional point control ideal for thrusting at gaps during fully armored combat (I've heard of VERY little, if any, utility of the katana in this regard). The guard is not just a means of protecting the hand, but is a fully functional weapon in its own right as a bill or hook, or even a form of pick (imagine punching someone in the temple or eye with the end of the guard!). The German school also uses the guard for traps of the blade, as well as in grappling (a MAJOR and often forgotten component of German martial arts is wrestling, and it figures VERY prominently into longsword, which you can see from the demonstrations in several of those videos). Then there's the pommel, which is an excellent weapon in its own right, turning the sword into a club or mace either using half-sword, or even gripping the whole sword by the blade (mordhau).

Any solid cut from any sword is going to give you a really bad day, so what difference does it make if you're cloven or sliced? The longsword is no less agile (which a certain poster would see if he bothered to take the videos seriously) and certainly more flexible. They're two different swords that do different things well, and it's enough of a difference in function that it's going to come down to how well the individual fighter can apply the full capabilities of his sword. The longswordsman would certainly need to beware of the quick slices of the katana, but his sword's cutting ability doesn't lag THAT far behind. The katana has to contend with the fact that he has NO way of knowing for sure from where or what part of the sword the attacks will come, as well as a slight advantage in reach to the longsword, and its superior thrusting ability. Oh, and for ink: a longsword thrust essentially ends in Langen Ort (long point) which isn't so easy to offset as you might think. Go too hard into the bind against Langen Ort and you're going to give yourself a lot of trouble.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2009, 08:36:54 PM »
Yes. All european war swords were blunt edged. Why do you think that was?

It's not like they couldn't sharpen a blade.  :lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYvwEnKRjA

Bad video. That's an arming sword, not broadsword. A broadsword is a VERY specific type of basket-hilt that appeared c. the 16th-17th centuries. And it perpetuates the same inaccurate and outdated notion that European swordsmanship was entirely brute strength, which your longsword videos (I especially liked this one) very nicely illustrates the OPPOSITE. Also, those swords WERE SHARP. As I said in my last post, there's a LOT of draw cuts especially in the German tradition (also applies to I.33) which would not have worked if these were blunt metal clubs.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 08:39:05 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline BnZs

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2009, 08:47:43 PM »
Ink, I know you're an okay guy, but it is you and Anodizer who are arguing from a position of *profound* ignorance regarding this particular subject matter. It is not really you guys' fault, since between pop culture, the Renn Faire/SCA scene, and poor historians, there is a lot of BS floating around on this rather obscure subject.

Suffice to say, when I compared preserved/quality replica European cutting swords against their Japanese counterparts, the weights were similar, with the European swords actually being somewhat lighter in relation to their length. It is not surprising that swords designed for powerful cuts will have a similar mass, a cutting sword must have just enough blade to support cutting geometry, without adding undue mass. If you think about it, you will realize the idea that any culture was stupid enough to make inordinately heavy swords is absurd. Not only would excess weight decrease the sword's maneuverability, but velocity is a component in the force of your attacks. Too much weight would prevent the warrior from accelerating his sword effectively under realistic condition, actually reducing striking force.

Metallurgically speaking, European swords have a resilliency that most traditional Nihonto lack. If you have poor edge alignment while practicing tamashigiri, you can easily end with a bent sword. Some very old school dojos keep a device known as a "sword" straightener on the wall.... By comparison, from at least the Viking period onward, European swords can typically be flexed at least 30 degrees or so out of line and return to true. This allows these swords to be thinner in cross-section than is typical for a traditional Japanese sword.

How sharp were European swords? From studying the techniques of the European teachers of fence from the 14th-16th centuries, it is apparent that many of the techniques they taught for use against unarmored opposition were relatively quick, light strikes and slices that would require a decent edge. The idea that Europeans used a "blunt" sword because of armor is wrong. Sword-edge sharpness is irrelevant when attacking iron and steel armor, you are not going to cut it to any effective extent. (Full plate armor is such effective protection against sword strikes that re-enactors today engage in essentially full-contact sword fights wearing the stuff.) However not every opponent on the battlefield was armored head-to-toe, and against leather, cloth, flesh, and bone, edge sharpness is *not* irrelevant. The only sort of "edgeless" type of European sword I know of is a rare, specialized type called an estoc that was forced with a narrow, diamond cross-section and specifically used as a sort of short spear/leverage tool against fully armored opposition. But as I say, this type is rare, understandable considering you can execute the same types of techniques with a more standard longsword.

What is their cutting potential? The ARMA used to have a video of a member removing the head of a freshly-killed deer with a single, one-handed strike from an Oakeshott type XIV, a typical blade-form from around 1300, pictured below. The part that stuck in my mind was that it was actually a less than full force, "pulled" blow because the tester was being careful not to strike the floor! Preserved examples of this type of sword are typically around 28'' in the blade and weigh in between 2-2.5 lbs. It is something of a "compromise" design between cutting and thrusting, and the taper gives it a very pleasant balance.



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