A HO?

[Crash Orange]

Didn't see that he was head on against bombers or involved in any 30 plane gang trying to HO the only red guy.  I'm sure there are more excuses to HO than listed earlier like..

(snip)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending HOs the way you see them 90% of the time, just point plane at nearest nme and pull trigger til you ram him or run out of ammo. I was just saying that there are some circumstances where I think they're warranted. Some people seem to think that regardless of the circumstances if you're each within 30 degrees or so of facing each other it's dishonorable to take the shot.

humble, I'd take that shot in a heartbeat. I'd call it a deflection shot anyway, he's nowhere near having a guns solution on you, which as I understand it is the definition of a HO. He's just made 'cause he screwed up and he knows it. If he comes in with a big e advantage and can't manage to keep his plane from flying 100 yards directly in front of you, he's just asking for a face full of lead. He's got the initiative, it's HIS job to avoid your guns.

[JHerne]

Wow...so head-on, mutal-fire maneuvers aren't allowed anymore?  

I prefer to hit heavies head-on, as most gunners can't figure out the forward deflection rate or the rate of merge. Is that dishonorable? Oh wait, that was the Luftwaffe's primary means of bringing down heavy bombers during WW2... never mind.

The way I see it... If I'm merging on an aircraft, and he rolls out BEFORE 1K, I'll do the same and we'll party. If he doesn't, then I figure he plans to HO, move to evade, then rudder back hard to try and get a deflection.

It's pretty simple, if I get the opportunity to shoot, I'm going to shoot. Looking for honorable fights these days in the MA is like a needle in a haystack. So I just play to the law of averages.

What really ticks me off are blatant ramming attempts... If he's firing, ok, fine, I can deal with that by returning fire or evading. But it seems far more common these days, especially down low, to see players trying to ram head-on without firing a round. Stupid. What adds to that is if your wing is tore off and he flies merrily along.

Now, opposite side of the coin... I got into a major go-round with wrongway, he in a Yak and me in a Spit. It didn't last long, 2-3 minutes, was 2v1 (in his favor), but it was a great tangle. I threw every possible move I had to get away, and I knew he was working hard to get a shot. At the start, we both rolled out about 1K before the merge. We had a nice chat on PM afterwards.

Lets face facts guys - in the real world, Ho-tard pilots died. They didn't respawn, they were dead, pining-for-the-fiords expired, no more. The better pilots survived. Its kinda like passing a car on the highway...the other car could be a normal, safe driver, or he could be a complete loser who's about to crash head-on into you. You never know who you're going to get on the other end, and you've only got a split second to react once you make the determination as to his intentions. Better him than me...

J

[SkyRock]

The point is that you claimed having an HO with them each and every pass. Sounds like you had no gun solution to begin with
Had you HOed with them, you would have stalled after first or second HO, since they all came from "high 12 oc", right?

I suppose you are one of those who call every attack from your frontal hemisphere an HO

again, sorry for your lack of understanding, I could have pulled shots on each of them...but by doing so, I would have lost speed and detracted from my objective....which was to gain enough speed for manuvers...they were higher than me about 1-2K but instead of them pulling up and rolling in behind, they all went for HO shots....dont know how much clearer I could be on that with you.  Not going to reply to you any further, your defense of the HO along with others is why we see 95% of the community going  for the HO instead of making a fight out of it...now.....carry on being a putz.

[captain1ma]

Was online last night for the first time in a week or so and got into a good fight (2 of 3 last night were good one-on-ones) with me in a Spixteen against a Seafire (the other good fight was me in a Temp vs. a Ta-152).

So anyway, this fight had been going on for about 5 minutes.  We ended up slightly seperated and as we both came around I had the opportunity to take a HO shot, which I did.  It's not like it was an opening merge or that we had 1.5K seperation or anything but there was some seperation.

The pilot ended up ditching safely denying me the kill.  He then posted something about HOing on 200 to which I PM'd him my response which lead to a heated exchange of name calling which led to a trip to the DA where we had five really fun fights.  <S> dude... any time you want to do that again let me know.

Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?

I've always played that after the merge anything goes.

no, never

and IN!!

[strong10]

Hmm.. So you're a Coward then?

Hmm.. Blauk, are you serious with the disrespectful, uncalled for name calling?  What is Aces High CM Staff?  Is that supposed to be a position of respect or responsibility?

You only appreciate sneaking from behind and taking no risk shots?   

You think and call ACM to get on another guys 6, as sneaking? 
   

You are obviously misinterpreting the concept of "going for a shot". Read it as "pointing guns at the enemy" and you may get it. There is no use of pointing guns at the enemy if you are not going to shoot.

It's called a MERGE dude.  Your logic is flawed here.  So what your saying is there is no point to merge unless you are shooting as you're merging since your "pointing guns at the enemy"?
 
Keep on arguing that HO'ing is valid and wonderful.  Maybe you can convince even more newbs into HO'ing since you're a Aces High CM Staff member.   

[Tr1gg22]

depends if there was any other threats around that wanted my scalp

[humble]

humble, I'd take that shot in a heartbeat. I'd call it a deflection shot anyway, he's nowhere near having a guns solution on you, which as I understand it is the definition of a HO. He's just made 'cause he screwed up and he knows it. If he comes in with a big e advantage and can't manage to keep his plane from flying 100 yards directly in front of you, he's just asking for a face full of lead. He's got the initiative, it's HIS job to avoid your guns.

I try and stay out of these since generically I agree with the "no HO ever" policy, however to me that caveat has certain assumptions attached. My goal is to win whatever 1 on 1 encounter that I'm engaged in. Normally establishing a position in the others guys rear hemisphere is the best way to do that. In fact anything else increases the possibility of taking instead of giving lead. I've never heard of a guy being HO'd by someone he's behind. Traditionally these "HO issues" are tied to shots on the 2nd or 3rd "merge" were one player feels he was neutral in position and passed on a shot opportunity only to have the other player take the equivalent shot.

Once a fight degenerates or in my case was never "even" then things are less clear. In the case this still came from I was never in any position to control the fight. In effect I had to manufacture a brief snapshot window from an inferior position by disquising my intentions and then taking a significant risk. We all know that a hanging topped out foe is the easiest target...look at the pick, you can just see the edge of the flap indicator...I'm nose up hanging the prop on 3 notches of flap to claw up and inside his pass and then letting the plane fall off to get that snapshot.

So I had to manufacture a shot and totally expose myself if I missed or if he had simply spiral climbed and rolled over on me as I stalled out. To me in the end you need to respect the ACM on both sides. If both guys are flying  s good fight then a HO is just flat out wrong....but in a fight with one plane clearly superior in position or performance that pilot has to accept and respect that the other pilot operating from a disadvantage will be more pressed to seize and exploit any momentary advantage he can. In effect the "superior" pilot {by plane or position} has to protect and preserve that superiority. Allowing the other guy a 50/50 shot is really bad ACM IMO.

Now this is totally different then a HO in a fight that started "even" or in a position of numerical superiority...

[Cajunn]

What about in an out numbered situation, if it were me out numbered I think I would take every offensive shot that presented itself and if I'm with the side with superior numbers I wouldn't blame the guy if he hit me in a frontal attack.   

[humble]

Again I think that ideally you want to avoid trading lead. when your outnumbered you need to defend vs multiple cons. that means your SA is split and you cant maintain accurate tally or position all the time. Turning away from 1 plane often exposes you to a frontal approach from another. I've held fire more then once only to get hosed...but also opened up and regretted it when I blasted the original con who was trying to "fight fair" when I thought it was a late arriving picktard.

The other factor is positioning, I cant tell you the number of times a guy comes in with 5k of alt of more and bounces 2-3 low cons and gets shot down....then whines on 200 he got "ganged". If you've got alt & E then numbers aren't relevant...

[BlauK]

I could have pulled shots on each of them...but by doing so, I would have lost speed and detracted from my objective....which was to gain enough speed for manuvers...they were higher than me about 1-2K

So you had no HOs with any of them, thus they had no HOs with you. Still you insist they HOed you. Go figure 

[BlauK]

You think and call ACM to get on another guys 6, as sneaking?

My sarcasm may be too difficult to understand. I apologize for that.
Is it not funny how shooting from behind and shooting from front can be seen so different in a cartoon airplanes' game and in a pistol shoot-out? Courage and Cowardice concepts get twisted around.... or do they?

   It's called a MERGE dude.  Your logic is flawed here.  So what your saying is there is no point to merge unless you are shooting as you're merging since your "pointing guns at the enemy"?

Pointing one's guns at the enemy is not the only merge! HO is not the only merge!
Pointing guns at the enemy is not same as flying to his general direction and avoiding a HO! That is what you seemed to miss in "Die Hard's rule" when you claim him a HOer.

My POINT is that lots of people talk about "HO this", "HO that" in lots of cases where there are no HOs at all. It is not a HO shot if the enemy cannot shoot you back at the same moment when you can shoot at him!

----

I have previously asked: "Who is the HOer... the one who is first targeting the enemy or the other who turns to face the incoming enemy?"

I claim that the first guy never goes for an HO, or wishes an HO. He simply goes in for a shot. It is the latter who HOs intentionally... and in some cases attack just is the best defense. Hos happen, let's live with it and stop whining.

[waystin2]

It is not a HO shot if the enemy cannot shoot you back at the same moment when you can shoot at him!

I do not see you advocating a HO shot in your posts, and I wholeheartedly concur on your definition. You are merely standing by your definition of what a HO shot is.  If there is no chance of you pulling the trigger and hitting my plane, and I can pull the trigger and hit yours, then this is not a HO.

[strong10]

My sarcasm may be too difficult to understand. I apologize for that.
Is it not funny how shooting from behind and shooting from front can be seen so different in a cartoon airplanes' game and in a pistol shoot-out? Courage and Cowardice concepts get twisted around.... or do they?

Thank you.   

  I think the comparison between a pistol shootout and cartoon airplane fighting is amusing.  I imagine you mean an old American western style shootout.  To be 'similar' the pistol shootout would involve both parties having their arms locked out forward in a splint or cast just like the cartoon airmen w/.45s.   
   
 

Pointing one's guns at the enemy is not the only merge! HO is not the only merge!
Pointing guns at the enemy is not same as flying to his general direction and avoiding a HO! That is what you seemed to miss in "Die Hard's rule" when you claim him a HOer.

My POINT is that lots of people talk about "HO this", "HO that" in lots of cases where there are no HOs at all. It is not a HO shot if the enemy cannot shoot you back at the same moment when you can shoot at him!

I understand the basic concepts of a HO and other types of merges.  Haven't heard of "Die Hard's rule".  I think most of us understand the difference between between a "lame" type HO shot(Which I believe this post is about) and an "ACM" HO shot(If you will)

Not sure why you're using exclamation points....!! Are you yelling out your point or has it's value diminished and now used as a period in your arguments.?  All that yelling is gonna give you a sore finger.

[BlauK]

Strong,
I have been all the time talking about his post in this thread:

I fly by one rule (or try to) with regard to HO's in the MA: If the other guy goes for the shot, I evade. If he evades, I go for the shot.

Seems to work pretty well.

Which you obviously misinterpreted and answered by calling him a HOer:

Hmm.. So you're a HO'er then..  and where is the part of trying to get on his six?   What do you do when he doesn't shoot or evade, ram each other?

I use "!" for emphasizing my points.
On BBS:s THE CAPITAL LETTERS are usually interpreted AS _SHOUTING_

I have no understanding of a "lame HO shot".
I pretty much only recognize a good HO (where the HOer has less to lose than the enemy, or even nothing to lose at all) and an unnecessary HO (where other better options were available).

[BaldEagl]

I am at 16k in a yak 9t and there is a mad u4 corsair closing on me. I am completely out classed at this altitude it my yak and about to die. By this time I am pointing directly at him and he is flying straight at me. At d1000 he is still coming and I have 6 rounds left. I put the pip just above his cockpit and fired 2 rounds. He blew up and started with the hotard crap on 200. In this situation which of you guys would have fired and who would have not fired? and why?

I would have passed on that one.  All you had to do was evade on the merge then dive out.  By the time he came around you'd have big seperation at which point you could decide what to do next.  It sounds like from 17K as long as the air was clear below you you could have taken it to the deck and he may not have even followed. 

BTW, the 9T is a good dogfighter.  I was having big fun in one the other night, 1 vs 1, 9T vs 9T but the other guy was hugging flakpanzers the whole time and one of them finally got me after 2-3 minutes.