Frame 1

[Saxman]

I'm pretty sure this came up a couple months ago. It's not in the RULES, but individual pilots buzzing around flashing bases to distract the defenses is an unwritten "Don't do that." I think it was one of the gamey tactics that came up in one of the threads from August Storm when we had Allied pilots suspected of bailing over a task group to draw AAA fire away from the rest of the strike.

[Nefarious]

Hmm.. I don't recall that.

IMO I think it's silly to not allow separate flights to flash bases to draw away enemy defenders.

Now bailing and remaining in a chute to draw fire or flash a base is pretty gamey and should be punishable.

[apcampbell]

We had a blast hitting A66. Unfortunately, As Bravo Strike Bomber Lead, I misjudged the flight path and at T+ 35 had to throw the flight plan out the window. I had hoped to be able to concentrate our bomber formation, but we were just plain running out of time.

Stoney, Dred, Thank you for the escort. You got us to the target, and that's what counts. Tried to keep the radio comms as professional as possible as well. Hope there was no confusion.

[Baumer]

That discussion had to do with pilots in chute's floating in the ack to distract it from the attacking planes.

It had nothing to do with aircraft flying in the radar ring to "flash" a base as a decoy.

[PFactorDave]

IMO I think it's silly to not allow separate flights to flash bases to draw away enemy defenders.

It's very gamey in my opinion.  During the war, what radar there was would have been able to tell the difference between a single P47 and a huge box of bombers.  Also, there would have been spotters on the ground relaying aircraft types and numbers to HQ.

Single aircraft sent solely for the purpose of flashing bases, is very gamey.  If there isn't a rule against it, there should be.

I thought the point was to encourage aerial combat.  Is FSO about the fighting?  Or is it about the score at the end?

[oakranger]

It's very gamey in my opinion.  During the war, what radar there was would have been able to tell the difference between a single P47 and a huge box of bombers.  Also, there would have been spotters on the ground relaying aircraft types and numbers to HQ.

Single aircraft sent solely for the purpose of flashing bases, is very gamey.  If there isn't a rule against it, there should be.

I thought the point was to encourage aerial combat.  Is FSO about the fighting?  Or is it about the score at the end?

Your right about German radar.  As i said earlyer, something like that will not distract axis.  There should a be a rule on that if we can not see them on radar or have the CiC have the ability to see them on radar.

[Hajo]

During the War the RAF oft times would send out a Mosquito ahead of the major Lancaster formations as a path finder.

So....whether it is gaming the game <shrugz>.

[morfiend]

That discussion had to do with pilots in chute's floating in the ack to distract it from the attacking planes.

It had nothing to do with aircraft flying in the radar ring to "flash" a base as a decoy.

 Which unfortunately happened lastnite as a player stayed "inchute" at 71 to draw the ack!

[Kermit de frog]

Mongrels had an excellent night.
We had 23 pilots (actually 24, but the extra was a gunner) and 0 deaths.
Lost a few drones, but not a bomber single pilot. Made it to our target, had a successful drop and flew home. One P-38 pilot had to ditch in the Channel. He was captured and another P-51 pilot had to bail over France.

Credit goes to our escorts:
412th Braunco Mustangs
Lynchmob
MAG-7

Air Raiders (109s) and Killuminati (190s) were tasked with defense of HQ.  The 109s were our early detection force while us 190s would be used to hit the bomber force before they hit HQ.  VF6 were also tasked with 109s for HQ defense, but only 1 showed up.


  Around T+40, the Air Raiders squadron reported a large fighter sweep composed of +20 P51s heading to HQ, so our 190s immediately vectored out of the target zone.  Then the Air Raiders reported that the bomber force was seen 10 miles behind that fighter sweep, so once again, our 190s were vectored North and were now going to fly around the fighter sweep.  Then the Air Raiders once again sent word, "the enemy escorts were stripped!"  Horrido!  Now our 190s are salivating at the chance to annihilate a group of B24s.  We then turned into the projected flight path of the B24s and immediately found the B24s!  But wait, is there another axis group attacking the B24s?  P51s, +10 were still giving close escort to the B24s!  This hive had bees!
  Our group now knew we had one chance at those bombers, so without hesitation, we blew through those escorts and fired at any bomber we could focus on.  First shots on the left side of the B24 formation occurred from our 190s.  Then, it seemed like the whole world lit up, as tracers filled the sky in all directions.  Our closure rates was fast, and I found myself switching targets every few seconds, maneuvering hard to avoid collisions a few times.  In a few more seconds, I found myself looking back to see this awesome B24 formation a mere 800 yards behind me.  Before I could pull to the left for another run, a nose gunner on the lead b24 ate his Wheaties that morning and nailed me.  I then bailed out and opened the silk.  With my engine no longer making a sound, I could now hear the roar of those B24s and 50 cals, as I floated to the ground.  The rest of the 190s, now were being chased away, immensely outnumbered by the P51s.  Our 190s went from the hunters to the hunted in a blink of an eye.  We were overwhelmed, hunted down and killed like dogs!
  The event started out with optimism regardless of our lower defensive size, but the plan was good.  As the events unfolded, it quickly turned into horror and some were left with a sour taste.  I personally can not wait for Frame 2, as we will seek our revenge and hunt down the 332nd like the dogs they are!

Well done to those who attacked the HQ strat.
 

[Nefarious]

If both sides use the Radar Warning Range to detect enemy attacks, then both sides should be able to spoof or trip the radar too draw away enemy defenders.

[daddog]

Kermit, great AAR.  

[AKKaz]

It's very gamey in my opinion.  During the war, what radar there was would have been able to tell the difference between a single P47 and a huge box of bombers.  Also, there would have been spotters on the ground relaying aircraft types and numbers to HQ.

Single aircraft sent solely for the purpose of flashing bases, is very gamey.  If there isn't a rule against it, there should be.

I thought the point was to encourage aerial combat.  Is FSO about the fighting?  Or is it about the score at the end?

This type of rule, if initiated will definifitely bite both ways.  As in the past, many routes are surrounded radar on the paths in and out.  It is indeed one thing that planners look at on how to get around them so as not to alert the nmy of their intention or route to target.  With the 60 min on target rule, on some setups it is impossible to not set off radar of non target bases to meet that requirement.

For something like what you are suggesting, then the pro must be taken away as well as the con for those that are defending.  All feilds other than the target bases should be turned off or non existant.  Target bases are just that, targets....... size, alt, hdg is always a guess for those defending.  Thats part of the defense guess work in trying to hit your nmy before they hit you.  IMHO, ploys by using the radar to draw off enemy from the intended target is not much different then many mission in europe that sent strike forces to other areas as well as the use of pathfinders.  The luftwaffe had to many times guess on the intended target as well as split their forces for that guess.  In this case, the targets are always known to the defenders. 

[MachFly]

Frame I was great, flying 25K+ Jugs at A66.........then barely having fuel to come back home lol


Wish to get a spitfire in frame II 

[PFactorDave]

This type of rule, if initiated will definifitely bite both ways.  As in the past, many routes are surrounded radar on the paths in and out.  It is indeed one thing that planners look at on how to get around them so as not to alert the nmy of their intention or route to target.  With the 60 min on target rule, on some setups it is impossible to not set off radar of non target bases to meet that requirement.

For something like what you are suggesting, then the pro must be taken away as well as the con for those that are defending.  All feilds other than the target bases should be turned off or non existant.  Target bases are just that, targets....... size, alt, hdg is always a guess for those defending.  Thats part of the defense guess work in trying to hit your nmy before they hit you.  IMHO, ploys by using the radar to draw off enemy from the intended target is not much different then many mission in europe that sent strike forces to other areas as well as the use of pathfinders.  The luftwaffe had to many times guess on the intended target as well as split their forces for that guess.  In this case, the targets are always known to the defenders. 

Maybe a second look at the T+60 rule is in order then.  Afterall, isn't the T+60 rule intended to move things along and encourage aerial combat?  But if it forces CiCs to take advantage of a gamey aspect of play (which discourages aerial combat), then maybe it needs to be adjusted.  Maybe the rule should be more tailored to the scenario.  I mean, why +60 every scenario?  If the targets are deeper into enemy territory, maybe it should be +75, +90, who knows?  If the time limit is going to force straight line paths, then it is a problem that needs a peek.  Bomber groups should have a little time flexibility to plan their routes. 
It shouldn't be a major problem to build custom time on target flexibility into each scenario.

On another topic.  It seems to me that the Allied ration of bombers to fighters is a bit skewed in favor of the fighters on this set up.  But I could be wrong about that, interested to hear other opinions.

[WxMan]

Salute to the Allied Cic on the use of "Decoys" .

Rt was tasked with patrolling 13.10 sector. Why any bomber group would choose this route to A71 would be suicide because of the heavy concentration of radar is beyond me, however, those where the orders and we followed them.

RT found in 2 cases a lone Jug flying around 2 airfields, A46 and A47 or A49,(I cant remember) in that order,right before A71 was to be attacked thus on radar, it would appear a force flying that route. In both cases the single jug was just circling not making any bomb run. So future axis Cic's take note of this tactic. 

Didn't the CM's issue a statement against tactics like this?

I don't remember any rules on using decoys, none the less, they weren't in my orders.

They were not in the CiC's orders. The AK's and the 334th were tasked with providing escort/fighter sweep for the strike force with 34 fighters. I had estimated that 50+ fighters would be protecting A71 (the logs show at least 53).  In hopes of making it more of a "fair" fight, and to allow the bombers to at least make it to target; an element of the AK's were ordered to flash A48, A49 and A50 in hopes of drawing some of the protecting CAP away from our intended route. As Dustoff noted above, it was not a logical route to attack from. It was a tactic that seemed to have a modicum of success.

I'm pretty sure this came up a couple months ago. It's not in the RULES, but individual pilots buzzing around flashing bases to distract the defenses is an unwritten "Don't do that." I think it was one of the gamey tactics that came up in one of the threads from August Storm when we had Allied pilots suspected of bailing over a task group to draw AAA fire away from the rest of the strike.

I have been participating in FSO's for seven years, performing CiC duties more than a dozen times . As a former AK FSO CO and current S2 officer, I know the rules. I follow the FSO forum closely, I make sure I'm up to date with the rules and have access to the Objectives of each frame. I doubt that more than 25% of FSO participants can make the same claim. Never, I repeat never has flashing bases been deemed a violation of the rules or has been considered gamey. It has been a strategy that has been used before in FSOs by CiC's as well as in Scenarios.

It's very gamey in my opinion.  During the war, what radar there was would have been able to tell the difference between a single P47 and a huge box of bombers.  Also, there would have been spotters on the ground relaying aircraft types and numbers to HQ.

Single aircraft sent solely for the purpose of flashing bases, is very gamey.  If there isn't a rule against it, there should be.

I thought the point was to encourage aerial combat.  Is FSO about the fighting?  Or is it about the score at the end?

IMO what is gamey, is allowing the horde to mass by knowing the enemy's target, by what time they have to strike and being able to deduce the general direction they will come from, but I understand the conscessions needed for gameplay.

The point of FSO IMHO is to offer an alternative to the Main Arenas. And yes in the end it is about score. That's why points are assigned and tallied. All games need a winner and a loser. This is achieved through air combat, strategy and tactics. If all you look forward to is furballing, then I would suggest that you remain in the MA.