Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[Kazaa]

Awesome wrist BnZ! Man, I wish I could throw spin like that.


asw

BnZs is a master debater.

[detch01]

BnZs is a master debater.

Ain't he though. I am awestruck by his complete resistance to anything that even smacks of disagreement with his position. Really amazing 

[Anaxogoras]

Ain't he though. I am awestruck by his complete resistance to anything that even smacks of disagreement with his position. Really amazing 

Too true.  It is only equaled by his most vocal detractors.

[BnZs]

The IX can be a great counter to the XVI.

Also the XVI can't be that good if my stats in it are exatly the same as the IX.

Okay...and the P-38J is clearly better than both. As evidenced by its overall average k/d relative other fighters. Agreed?

[BnZs]

Ain't he though. I am awestruck by his complete resistance to anything that even smacks of disagreement with his position. Really amazing 

I am awestruck by the addiction to irrelevancies shown by people who can't actually answer one's arguments. Threads like these always manage to knock the "average joe" down a few more notches in my eyes.

[BnZs]

Since this thread is not about the history of Spitfires, or the experiences of their actual pilots, or the wartime performance of actual Spitfires, or indeed anything other than the performance of our cartoon Spitfires relative other cartoon airplanes as *modeled in this game*, Guppy's considerable expertise on the history of the type has little or no bearing.

IOW, yet another irrelevancy introduced to confuse the issue and slight me. Nice try though!

If bnz is going to go toe to toe with Guppy on spits he needs to spend a few years educating himself first. Dan has a long history of experience on real spits He has met and interviewed many of the actual spit pilots in his quest for knowlege on its history and use.

[Kazaa]

Okay...and the P-38J is clearly better than both. As evidenced by the fact by its overall average k/d relative other fighters. Agreed?

Can you show data?

[BnZs]

Can you show data?

I could, but why should I do the work when you can just look up the recent General Discussion thread where these numbers and their implications were discussed at length?

[Kazaa]

Because your the person who's arguing to get the XVI perked. You should put all relevant information forward.

[BnZs]

Okay, I just looked up the Late-War tour 111 stats. And I have pasted it, unwieldy though it looks. You can look at it yourself easily on the scores page if you want, where it will be more tidy.

As you can see, the P-38J's k/d stats were better than that of the P-51D, La7, ANY Spitfire, and much higher than that of the nearly identical P-38L. And the thing had over 5,000 kills, so its not like the sample size is tiny, either. The Ta-152's were even higher, at 1.66, and it had over 2,000 kills. So, unless I've missed a non-perk plane with an even higher K/D on this list, it looks like the P-38J and Ta-152 are the "best" non-perked planes. Or are they?

Late War Tour 111 Statistics for all planes
Plane Name    Kills    Deaths    Kill/Death Ratio
A-20G    4922    3468    1.42
A6M2    887    1992    0.45
A6M5b    11711    13558    0.86
Ar 234    415    664    0.62
B-17G    3948    10190    0.39
B-24J    6555    17131    0.38
B-25C    321    2851    0.11
B-25H    3819    7886    0.48
B-26B    2045    6629    0.31
B5N2    232    859    0.27
Bf 109E-4    208    536    0.39
Bf 109F-4    1935    1873    1.03
Bf 109G-14    3832    3726    1.03
Bf 109G-2    2699    2458    1.10
Bf 109G-6    2918    2686    1.09
Bf 109K-4    9054    7355    1.23
Bf 110C-4b    223    638    0.35
Bf 110G-2    9145    14617    0.63
Boston III    138    1116    0.12
C-47A    272    5869    0.05
C.202    328    617    0.53
C.205    3849    3556    1.08
D3A1    127    614    0.21
F4F-4    671    944    0.71
F4U-1    2621    2663    0.98
F4U-1A    11386    9183    1.24
F4U-1C    9548    3871    2.47
F4U-1D    14979    20836    0.72
F4U-4    3299    1349    2.45
F6F-5    10589    14675    0.72
FM2    3795    3976    0.95
Fw 190A-5    4986    3795    1.31
Fw 190A-8    11449    10296    1.11
Fw 190D-9    10242    7627    1.34
Fw 190F-8    1164    1786    0.65
Hurricane Mk I    465    1174    0.40
Hurricane Mk IIC    9338    6552    1.43
Hurricane Mk IID    597    1321    0.45
Il-2    14844    12669    1.17
Jeep    276    2850    0.10
Ju 87D-3    359    1056    0.34
Ju 88    776    6845    0.11
Ki-61    1769    1416    1.25
Ki-67    550    1877    0.29
Ki-84-Ia    8366    6890    1.21
La-5FN    1556    1808    0.86
La-7    14035    13198    1.06
Lancaster III    4465    18884    0.24
LVTA2    2185    6933    0.32
LVTA4    2738    7697    0.36
M-16    946    2025    0.47
M-3    2245    12706    0.18
M-8    3532    6140    0.58
Me 163B    562    90    6.24
Me 262    3745    586    6.39
Mosquito Mk VI    3923    4485    0.87
N1K2    18026    16537    1.09
Ostwind    5183    4852    1.07
P-38G    808    935    0.86
P-38J    5283    3383    1.56
P-38L    8396    11455    0.73
P-39D    343    644    0.53
P-39Q    846    1449    0.58
P-40B    230    860    0.27
P-40E    1205    1730    0.70
P-47-D11    1564    1350    1.16
P-47-D25    1331    1384    0.96
P-47-D40    5666    6587    0.86
P-47N    3060    4350    0.70
P-51B    3031    3353    0.90
P-51D    36636    33415    1.10
Panzer IV H    55646    70076    0.79
PT Boat    5086    15634    0.33
SBD-5    330    1264    0.26
SdKfz 251    133    645    0.21
SeaFire    14540    16937    0.86
Sherman VC    44199    18197    2.43
Spitfire Mk I    362    1512    0.24
Spitfire Mk IX    9886    9046    1.09
Spitfire Mk V    1893    2963    0.64
Spitfire Mk VIII    12990    12606    1.03
Spitfire Mk XIV    1400    919    1.52
Spitfire Mk XVI    31019    28182    1.10
T-34/76    6347    10848    0.59
T-34/85    15742    10586    1.49
Ta 152H    2823    1705    1.66
TBM-3    597    4029    0.15
Tempest    5688    889    6.40
Tiger I    11793    3238    3.64
Typhoon IB    18230    12256    1.49
Wirbelwind    43488    25013    1.74
Yak-9T    1758    1923    0.91
Yak-9U    6346    5871    1.08
Totals    613488    655715    0.94

[Karnak]

Since this thread is not about the history of Spitfires, or the experiences of their actual pilots, or the wartime performance of actual Spitfires, or indeed anything other than the performance of our cartoon Spitfires relative other cartoon airplanes as *modeled in this game*, Guppy's considerable expertise on the history of the type has little or no bearing.

IOW, yet another irrelevancy introduced to confuse the issue and slight me. Nice try though!

Of course when I point out game data and effects that don't support your claim, you say they are irrelevant.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[BnZs]

Of course when I point out game data and effects that don't support your claim, you say they are irrelevant.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

One bit of game data you point out is the SpitXVI's K/D. Yes I say it is irrelevant, and I have demonstrated over and over why it is irrelevant...k/d of a given airplane involves too many factors that have nothing to do with performance.

Another bit of game data you point out is popularity. The popularity of a plane if anything has even less to do with in-game performance than k/d. The best example of this is the P-51D's continually great popularity, despite the availability of many planes that could fill its niche in the MA as well or better from a performance standpoint.

Edit: I should point out that my premise is that perkage should relate to relative *performance*, even if said plane constituted 1% of sorties and had a k/d of .17. Obviously this is unlikely to actually happen in the MA if the airplane well and truly does possess excellent relative performance, but as a matter of principle I would stand by my premise in this case.

[SlapShot]

I am awestruck by the addiction to irrelevancies shown by people who can't actually answer one's arguments. Threads like these always manage to knock the "average joe" down a few more notches in my eyes.

And it's threads like these that manage to show that your are even more pompous and condescending than previously exhibited.

I'll bet those "average joes" will have a hard time sleeping tonight because they don't measure up to your standards.

[BnZs]

And it's threads like these that manage to show that your are even more pompous and condescending than previously exhibited.

I'll bet those "average joes" will have a hard time sleeping tonight because they don't measure up to your standards.

*shrug* I try to play things fairly straight. When I get snide and irrelevant remarks, I respond in kind. Pay every man in his own coin.

[SlapShot]

*shrug* I try to play things fairly straight. When I get snide and irrelevant remarks, I respond in kind. Pay every man in his own coin.

I could possibly believe that but it appears that those who don't agree with whatever topic you choose to debate, there seems to be an underlying/implied message in your responses that they really aren't as "smart" as you.

You continue to beat this Spit 16 horse into the ground across multiple threads and I don't think that God himself could enter this debate and prove you wrong and you admitting such ... why the other keep "feeding" you is beyond me.

I have a feeling that you can't walk by a mirror without stopping to check yourself out ... you really are quite enamored with yourself.