Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[BnZs]

Never mind, Ack-Ack's remarks don't even merit a response.

[Guppy35]

My dear Grizz, my entire point with contrasting these statistics has been to show that k/d hinges largely upon the unpredictable variable of "who's flying it" and may not accurately reflect the relative capability of the aircraft, and that is why I consider k/d basically useless in determining whether or not a give plane performs well enough to warrant perkage.

Grizz, who is the one being non-objective by arbitrarily declaring some rides "second-class"? My point has been that IMHO the SpitXVI enjoys near total a2a superiority relative too many rides at typical LW alts to remain free. I named some of them. The P-47Ds, P-38J/L, Fw-190As, and F6F are "second class" or "irrelevant relics"? I don't think so. They were widely produced historically important planes that would be vastly more viable for the average player to fly (as something *besides* a bomb truck) if they weren't practically guaranteed to run into large numbers of Spixteens who do just about everything better a2a. The Ki-84, arguably the best plane in the Japanese set, would also see a large increase in usefulness/viability if it weren't for ubiquitous Spixteens doing nearly everything just a little better in a2a combat.

The key phrase here, finally, is that in your opinion, the Spit 16...etc etc.  Opinion being the important word.

Clearly many of us don't share the same opinion, including the designer of the game.  Just shoot em and quit worrying about trying to make other folks fly the plane you want them to for your/their own good.

As on of those P38 drivers out there, I look for Spit 16s to shoot, and I don't carry bombs or rockets on a perfectly good 38.  And I'm average at best.  The good thing is the 16 drivers are average at best too, so it's a fair fight.

[BnZs]

Minor point Gup:
The utter a2a superiority of the SpitXVI over many other rides is not an opinion, it is fact backed up with numbers.

What conclusions you draw from this fact, that of course depends strongly from one's own ideas of what constitutes fair play and sportsmanship. I will say having a given plane or two enjoy such utter a2a superiority over so much of the rest of the set is fair in the same way that steroid use in baseball is "fair" as long as everyone has equal access to the same juice...and if you're okay with everyone who does not use being at a decided disadvantage against those who do. This is in spite of the fact that you and I might still hit a good number of homers on just "beer and hotdogs", if I may stretch the metaphor well out of proportion.

To put it another way, I think deciding what to fly ought to be a tough choice.

The key phrase here, finally, is that in your opinion, the Spit 16...etc etc.  Opinion being the important word.

Clearly many of us don't share the same opinion, including the designer of the game.  Just shoot em and quit worrying about trying to make other folks fly the plane you want them to for your/their own good.

As on of those P38 drivers out there, I look for Spit 16s to shoot, and I don't carry bombs or rockets on a perfectly good 38.  And I'm average at best.  The good thing is the 16 drivers are average at best too, so it's a fair fight.

[RumbleB]

Hmm, I digest spit16s and nikis regularly in my 38G   I think the "G" stands for  Giant Gonads 

Or maybe Goofball

Not sure if I've ever witnessed a more prolific whiner than you, so in this case it might actually stand for Girl.   

[Guppy35]

Minor point Gup:
The utter a2a superiority of the SpitXVI over many other rides is not an opinion, it is fact backed up with numbers.

What conclusions you draw from this fact, that of course depends strongly from one's own ideas of what constitutes fair play and sportsmanship. I will say having a given plane or two enjoy such utter a2a superiority over so much of the rest of the set is fair in the same way that steroid use in baseball as long as everyone has equal access to the same juice...and if you're okay with everyone who does not use being at a decided disadvantage against those who do. This is in spite of the fact that you and I might still hit a good number of homers on just "beer and hotdogs", if I may stretch the metaphor well out of proportion.

I reached the opinion a while ago, that trying to force folks into other airplanes, just doesn't work.  I'd suggest it's a small part of the community that really has an interest in the history and the actual air combat aspect and challenge that is available within the game.  The majority are interested in 'winning' the easiest way possible.

I believe that had the Spit 16 been called the Spit IXe that you'd see less of them and about an equal amount of 8s and FIXs along with them.  The Spit is what it is, an easy bird to fly.  It was in reality. I've talked about it before, but real Spit pilots will say that it was, and one current Spit driver told me that they should probably have started him in Spits before he went to fly T-6s.    When they took a Hurricane and Spitfire to Malta for an airshow and anniverary there, the pilots both wanted to fly the Hurricane as it was more of a challenge to fly and would keep them on their toes on the long flight.  Not that they disliked the Spitfire, but it was the easier bird to fly.

What I believe about the Spits in AH is that they get folks to do more then go fast from on high and shoot as they blow through.  Spit drivers for the most part tend to try and turn them thinking they can take on anything.  This isn't always true, but I'd rather have them believe it and stick around and fight, then not.  So trying to take that away from the newbie AH guys and those who don't really want to work on it, just makes for worse game play....or less targets for the rest of us who like to shoot planes in an air combat sim.

[Raptor]

BnZ, there is a reason the spit16 is a double superior to the 190A, it was a direct response to the 190 series. So the LW adjusted and developed later 190 variants. The RAF then evolved as well. That's how war works. If you want a LW ride that does not have a "double inferior" to the spit16, fly the 190d or TA-152. But then you will be complaining about the Spit14 yes? Fact of the matter is you choose to fly an earlier war 190 in a late war arena. One of the spits is always going to be one of the top most popular rides. When I started it was the Spit5, now the 16.

[BnZs]

BnZ, there is a reason the spit16 is a double superior to the 190A, it was a direct response to the 190 series. So the LW adjusted and developed later 190 variants. The RAF then evolved as well. That's how war works. If you want a LW ride that does not have a "double inferior" to the spit16, fly the 190d or TA-152. But then you will be complaining about the Spit14 yes? Fact of the matter is you choose to fly an earlier war 190 in a late war arena. One of the spits is always going to be one of the top most popular rides. When I started it was the Spit5, now the 16.

Yeah, I think I listed alot more rides than the Fw-190 A5. Which would *not* be on the list anyway if it wasn't 10-12mph to slow OTD btw...but that is another topic.

You notice that many of the rides I'm talking about are *only available* in LW? Can't very well say "but you're only comparing irrelevant EW rides" when much of what I'm comparing is not even available except in LW.

Yeah, and the upwards and onwards to ever rarer and more uber LW rides...not so sure its a good thing. Moot was asking for a 190D variant that went *400 mph* on the deck and a Runstang with 150 octane fuel so as to run better...uh...no thank you. I'd rather stick with common planes and ask for things to be "evened out" through a little intelligent use of the perk than ask for dubious uber-planes that were built in tiny numbers during the last 5 minutes of the war.

I tell you, when I hear a guy say "I'm only an average player, I have to have a Spixteen to be competitive", it makes me wonder. I wonder if he'd think that if it he wasn't competing against other spixteens so much. I think, shouldn't an average player be averagely competitive in damn near any ride he picks out? At least LW ride? Some other combination of ride for him and his opposition, he might learn the joys of fighting something he out-turns but does not out-climb or out-roll, or vis versa.

SpitV, SpitIX, I know they've always had a great reputation but the fact is these two models had to deal with being slower than the vast bulk of planes they could easily outmaneuver. The SpiXVI changes things in that regard.

Don't  know why people are so afraid of using the perk system either. Hell, I enjoy GVing, and 3 out of 5 tanks are perked, and that makes perfect sense to me, the perked tanks have real advantage over their unperked mates, fair enough.

[moot]

I didnt ask for those to run better.  Give me a 152 without the GM1 ballast, and I won't be using the extra spare thrust to run.

[hitech]

Just to make sure I understand your wishes, you want all planes that are not perked to have 1 clear advantage of the big 4 over all the others?

I.E. 1 Climb
      2 Fire Power
      3 Speed
      4 Turn Rate?

[SlapShot]

I'd rather stick with common planes and ask for things to be "evened out" through a little intelligent use of the perk than ask for dubious uber-planes that were built in tiny numbers during the last 5 minutes of the war.

And there you have it ... once again, your the only "intelligent" one ... you really are a piece of work.

[SkyRock]

spixteens are .50 cal fodder for me 1-hog...nuff said.

[Anaxogoras]

Just to make sure I understand your wishes, you want all planes that are not perked to have 1 clear advantage of the big 4 over all the others?

I.E. 1 Climb
      2 Fire Power
      3 Speed
      4 Turn Rate?

That would be impossible.

A charitable interpretation would be that he thinks it's best if most aircraft can either out-turn or out-run their opponent.  Some exceptions are ok, but when an airplane can out-run and out-turn as many as the XVI, it should be perked.  (Acceleration has to be given some weight too, or the argument won't work)

This is not my view, just my best guess as to what BnZs should be saying to motivate his position.

BnZs, why aren't you sticking to the basics?  As for the rest of ya, stop being so insipid (uh-oh, mudslinging).  There is absolutely room for debate on this issue.

Edit:

Lastly, I dare say that if you grant BnZs the premise that ENY/Perks should be based on performance and not use % or k/d, then it would be extremely difficult to prevent the conclusion that there's a lot of ENY/Perk values that need adjustment.  Preferring performance to popularity and circumstance for ENY/Perks seems like a reasonable idea to me.  So far, the argument I see against it is that it's not how things are done now.

[shreck]

I actually find the spitVIII a bit more of a problem against my 38G than the XVI,  just my opinion though

[Karnak]

Huh...according to DokGonzo's charts the SpitIX outclimbs the P-51D, F4U-1D, P-47D-40, P-47N, P-38L, and F6F. Those are all LW planes, with the exception of the F6F, and none of them can be called "uncommon". But, do not take this observation as reason for major disagreement between us Karnak, since I have clearly articulated my opinion that the SpitVIII should be left a free plane.

Try taking less than 100% fuel in the P-51D, it brings it up to dang close to the Spit IX.  The La-7 and N1K2 are both superior at MA alts.  The P-38J and L are superior.  Ki-84 is superior.  Bf109G-14 and K-4 are vastly superior.  Fw190D-9 is superior.

One of the things that pushed me out of the Spit IX was the fact that 7/10 aircraft I encountered could disengage from me at will because I was in a mid-1942 fighter and they were in 1944/45 monsters.

I'd rather stick with common planes and ask for things to be "evened out" through a little intelligent use of the perk than ask for dubious uber-planes that were built in tiny numbers during the last 5 minutes of the war.

Now you're calling an aircraft with production of over 5,000 starting in mid 1943 a "dubious uber-plane that was built in tiny numbers during the last 5 minutes of the war"?  Ok.  I think the Ta-152, Me163, F4U-1C, C.205, 3 cannon La-7 and N1K2-J come far, far closer to that than anything in the RAF set.

[SlapShot]

A charitable interpretation would be that he thinks it's best if most aircraft can either out-turn or out-run their opponent.  Some exceptions are ok, but when an airplane can out-run and out-turn as many as the XVI, it should be perked.  (Acceleration has to be given some weight too, or the argument won't work)

I still don't get the "out-run" argument. Whenever I am fighting anything that can outrun me (which is pretty much 98% of the planes), when the point comes that they really need to "run" ... if they are within 600 yrds to right off my nose ... they find out quickly that they cannot, no matter how hard they try, out accelerate or out run my .50 cals within that zone.

Point being ... most don't use, or try to use, their speed/acceleration benefit until its too late ... hence the reason why the Spit 16, despite it's usage numbers and it's double-uber abilities, does not dominate the skies of AH and enjoys a mediocre K/D.