109-G2 Whats with the swastikas?

[MaxImm]

With all the talk about climb rates, engine specs. and to methanol or not to methanol, has
anyone taken a good look at the wings of the G2.  Ick!!!  I'm up for some tail (swastika)
but leave my wing crosses alone.I have combed the history books and have yet to find this
paint scheme.  If historically correct then so be it but what fanatical squadron adopted
these colors?

[leonid]

MaxImm,
That is Finnish markings, not German.  This aircraft represents an aircraft from the Finnish air force during WWII.  The Finnish had the swastika as a national symbol from even before Hitler ever came to power in Germany.

------------------
leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA

[kjb]

One of you Finnish gentlemen can answer this, butt i don't think they called it a Swastika?

------------------
KJB
aka kjb  

[Jochen]

 

I'm up for some tail (swastika)
but leave my wing crosses alone.I have combed the history books and have yet to find this
paint scheme. If historically correct then so be it but what fanatical squadron adopted
these colors?

Leonid got it right, of course. Blue swastikas were symbol of Finnish Air Force since 1918, much earlier than anybody has even heard about national socialists in germany. Finnish Blue Swastikas have nothing to do with nazi regime swastika.

Here is bit of history from WB squad Icebreakers page which explains this thing further:

For those not "in the know" do not start shooting off your mouth about our squadron insignia before you know better. That is not the nazi swastika you see there, but a Von Rosen cross which was the insignia of the Finnish Air Force (FAF) from 1918 to 1945 - estabilished way before a certain Austrian corporal made a similar symbol infamous with his national socialistic ideology. For that very reason the FAF was forced to change it's insignia to the current blue and white roundel.

   
 The common foreigner would have not believed it has nothing to do with the nazis anyway. But as you are now here, we can safely assume that you are either a current or potential WarBirds pilot. Which means you probably are educated enough in the history of aerial combat to indeed know better. In case you are not, here is a quick crash course on that certain aspect of FAF history:

It is called a Von Rosen cross because the first two airplanes, Thulin Parasols - licence-built copies of a Morane Saulnier design - that formed the FAF were donated by a Swedish count Erik Von Rosen shortly after Finland's independence from the chaos of Russian revolution. The cross was the traditional symbol of good luck for the Von Rosen family. They probably had picked it up from Indian Aryan mythology where the swastika is a symbol for the Sun and, incidentally, good luck.
 http://www.compart.fi/Icebreakers/home.html

------------------
jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (Warbirds)

If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!


[This message has been edited by Jochen (edited 01-19-2000).]

[Hristo]

Risking this sensitive issue, let me repeat the old question:

Why not the full LW markings for LW planes ? It was there, we know it.

It is still there on the planes in museums.

[leonid]

Hristo,
Well, a practical viewpoint.  In Germany, it is unlawful to make use of any product that displays the swastika of the Nazi Party (as opposed to the Finnish swastika).  Hence, any German caught playing an online flight sim that incorporated the Nazi swastika could be prosecuted under German Law.

------------------
leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA

[Hristo]

CC, I was under the influence of EAW and Jane's. So, the planes in those boxed sims do not have swastikas when bought in Germany ?

[juzz]

I think it can only be displayed "publicly" by legitimate historical organisations, eg: museums. That's to stop neo-nazis in SS uniforms parading down the streets in Berlin, waving big swastika flags and spouting fascist propaganda, etc.  

I don't think that playing a computer game in the privacy of your own home would have any legal ramifications though. But HTC would probably get into legal trouble with the German govt. for distributing the swastika image over the internet.

Jane's WW2 Fighters displays the swastika on the German planes in some regional versions(eg:Asia-Pacific). I doubt the screenshots on the website show it though, for the same reasons.

All just my guesswork though... where's one of them German fellows to tell me how it really is?

[Azrael]

Had that discussion yesterday in the arena.

Even if HT would add swastikas to the german planes (bad idea IMHO), it wouldn't be illegal to play this sim in germany. But there is a possible risk that AH must not be advertised in germany or on german web pages.

All IMHO of course.

And maximm, get the Finnish Aces Edition of the Osprey Aircraft of the Aces series to see lots of german and allied planes in these markings.

Az

[This message has been edited by azrael (edited 01-19-2000).]

[Minotaur]

The Fin's dissolved themselves of that symbol, for good reasons.  But, this issue is complicated.  

If there had been no extermination of Jews during WWII, the Swastika would be no more or no less than a symbol that designated one force from the other.  Only a "Shield Crest".  

EX: The Rising Sun of Japan,  The Striped Star of the US or The Swaskika of Germany or Finland

The Swastika was THAT symbol, regardless of the color.  The German Swaskita came afterward, OK.  Many people still bear that hatred today.  

Personally I have no problem with displaying the blue Swastika on a Finish airplane, but I can see where others might.  Get off your high horse, if you are sitting on it.

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-19-2000).]

[Fishu]

Them who thinks that FAF symbol should not be used, should read some book about FAF, before begins talking about nazi swastikas..

Such over reacting makes me wonder why do we study history of 1930 to 1946 at school, when theres alot nazi stuff between those years..
IMO, Studying those years and watching documents of that era, is far more worst than some FAF symbol in a game, which is not even nazi swastika.

[Sascha JG 77]

Even though I know the Finnish markings have nothing to do with Nazi-Symbolism (the swastika is a very old symbol), it's funny how I (as a German) react to seeing the 109 G2 in these markings.

Since we grew up with the heritage of the 3rd Reich, we just can't see the swastika in another way than being a Nazi-Symbol (at least I can't, unless I make myself to).

For a foreigner this is prolly hard to understand, but I'll try to give you an example:

Americans: Imagine seeing a rebel flag flying over your school/house/etc.

or even better:

Imagine seeing a naked, female breast on network television.  

See what I mean?    

Sascha

------------------
Jagdgeschwader 77 "Herz As!"

[This message has been edited by Sascha JG 77 (edited 01-19-2000).]

[Minotaur]

Sascha;

   

Americans: Imagine seeing a rebel flag flying over your school/house/etc

It is still here today.  In an USA state called South Carolina, above a government building, waves a Confederate Flag. (Rebel Flag)

This flag has become a "Hot Bed" of political and soon to be legal manuvering, because it is above a government building and it is in the full public view.

To some people of South Carolina, this flag  represents the symbol that kept their ancestors bound in slavery.  To others, it represents nothing other than their heritage.  

My guess is, the flag will come down.  Although not of the same exact circumstance, but for much the same reason the Swastika Flag is not flown over Germany.

Thank you for your personal insight.

As for "Boobies", bring em on...    

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-19-2000).]

[delta]

Hello,

This is a question for any Finnish pilot or authority on the Finnish swastikas:

I have noticed that the Finnish swastikas are displayed at what I call zero angle rotation.  Meaning that all lines are either at a horizontial or vertical allignment.

The Nazi swastikas were displayed at a 45 degree rotation angle.

Is this not so and another important distinction between the two?

delta

[Bad Omen]

Isn't the Finnish WWII national symbol actually referred to as a 'hakristi'?

It is different to the swastika is several small details. For one, its blue. It is displayed with arms at 90deg points instead of 45deg points. Also, the 'arms' off the cross are about 1/2 as long as a swastika.

Incidently, both the hakristi and the swastika, as well as other similar symbols that have been displayed through time, are simple graphic symbols referring to an ancient farming tool if memory serves me right.

If it wasn't for that darned little corporal, the symbol wouldn't mean anything. Personally, my feeling is that those who try to forget the past are most likely to repeat it.