Author Topic: HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13 (Read 2988 times)

Westy · « **Reply #15 on:** January 28, 2000, 01:43:00 PM »

You've got my interest really peaked Leonid.
I'm off to find out more on the Yak-3/V108

How would the Hawker Tempest V stand up out of curiosity? It was a reported low level demon too.

...off to the 'net....

-Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-28-2000).]

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2000, 12:21:00 AM »

When it comes to a dogfite, I'd prolly pick the Yak over the 47M... but that's not what we were talking about. 463 TAS at 20K is damn fast... but when you're measuring a/c speed, that's still less than 470 at 30K no matter how you look at it Leonid!

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

juzz · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2000, 06:41:00 AM »

Ta152H: 470mph at 41,000ft

P-51H: 487mph at 25,000ft?!

They's fast too

Westy · « **Reply #18 on:** January 30, 2000, 08:41:00 AM »

Too fast? Nah. Only if you're a 262 pilot

-Westy

jmccaul · « **Reply #19 on:** January 30, 2000, 12:13:00 PM »

This is an intresting discussion because I think HTC should draw the line somewhere on uberplanes. Where do you put that line?
Very low production, limited service or few combat engagements all count.
Personally planes such as the Ta 152 (only a production run of 67 on all types I read somewhere) ,F7F, F8F, spit 21, meteor, sea fury the sort of planes which never really saw signicant combat due to being to late should not get into the game. I think we should see Tempest's (squadrons recieved them in spring '44, 1400 produced - only 400 naiper-sabre engined V's though) Spit 14's (spring '44) 190 D9 (a mid '44 I think, production run of about 800?)

Intrestingly the Me 262 would certainly have every right to be modeled under these circumstances that is just a question of play balance (do people want it available?)

The F4U-4 is also intresting due to the fact the pacific war went on much longer than the european conflict and so the -4 saw combat despite it's introduction in '45 (mid '45 ?) Which if the european conflict was still going on we might well have seen spit 21 etc in more significant numbers.

F4U - 1C I think is slightly different as it is just an exotic armament layout for the -1D I do not think there would be uproar if only 200 spit 9 e-wings (2 .5's and 2 20mm) were made and HTC still offered it as an option.

P.S. What were the introduction dates of the p47M, Yak 3/VK - 108 , p51 H.

Having said that I hear were getting the typhoon I hope it's the eurofighter jet version.

Personally though i would like to see HTC go backwards from here so we get the planes that won the war and so we have sets for the scenarios. The hurricane was not as good as the P47 M but it was a hell of a lot more important.

jmccaul · « **Reply #20 on:** January 30, 2000, 12:19:00 PM »

Oh and speed is only good for running away, acceleration,placid low speed handling anbd manuvrebility are king in a dogfight.

I think it's intresting that the P51's main asset (apart from range) is speed but as an escort this is largly negated due to the fact that running away means failing in your escort duty.

Disclaimer : only opinions don't cry if you don't agree your plane is still worthy of your love.

dolomite · « **Reply #21 on:** January 30, 2000, 02:15:00 PM »

Quote

Oh and speed is only good for running away, acceleration,placid low speed handling anbd manuvrebility are king in a dogfight

Now, you don't seriously believe this... I assume that is what the

is for!

The zero is the perfect example of this. I think we should get the A6M5(a or c) at some point, but it will get shredded nonetheless by hordes of everything else in the set. It will be the king of the TnB, but it won't matter to an enemy that can start and end a fight at will.

jmccaul · « **Reply #22 on:** January 30, 2000, 02:49:00 PM »

I am serious dolomite
but i think you
misunderstand my meaning
by dogfight i mean 1v1
rather than an arena situation
where speed is very important
, FOR RUNNING AWAY

Or to put it a better way
to chose which targets you
engage and then choose
targets which are at a clear
disadvantage then have the
ability to disengage.

In 1v1 it boils down to
getting as much alt as
possible while still
being able to reverse
(hence placid handling
is useful so you can
reverse safely at 75
mph without spinning,
and climb to get alt)
The zero isn't a great
at 1v1. The 109,spit on
the other display these
characteristics.

[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 01-30-2000).]

dolomite · « **Reply #23 on:** January 30, 2000, 05:29:00 PM »

I respectfully disagree. Fight Hitech in the F4U, or Wardog in the P51. You will see people who can take your Spit or 109 a lot of the time. These guys keep the fight tight and push you the whole time. A good 51 or Hawg pilot doesn't have to use speed to run, they can use it to zoom on you. Besides, a short extension doesn't mean the fight is over.

Fishu · « **Reply #24 on:** January 30, 2000, 06:00:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by jmccaul:
This is an intresting discussion because I think HTC should draw the line somewhere on uberplanes. Where do you put that line?
Very low production, limited service or few combat engagements all count.
Personally planes such as the Ta 152 (only a production run of 67 on all types I read somewhere) ,F7F, F8F, spit 21, meteor, sea fury the sort of planes which never really saw signicant combat due to being to late should not get into the game. I think we should see Tempest's (squadrons recieved them in spring '44, 1400 produced - only 400 naiper-sabre engined V's though) Spit 14's (spring '44) 190 D9 (a mid '44 I think, production run of about 800?)

Intrestingly the Me 262 would certainly have every right to be modeled under these circumstances that is just a question of play balance (do people want it available?)

The F4U-4 is also intresting due to the fact the pacific war went on much longer than the european conflict and so the -4 saw combat despite it's introduction in '45 (mid '45 ?) Which if the european conflict was still going on we might well have seen spit 21 etc in more significant numbers.

B]

..and N1K2 / C.205?
Pretty limited numbers of those also, its not an excuse anymore that Ta-152 built for few.. hell, they did kill for their quality

Again we crash into the fact that there were 5 Shermans against one Tiger.. but Tiger was far more powerful than Sherman

So.. why shouldn't we have Ta-152 then?
1 Ta-152 vs. 10 P-51s..

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #25 on:** January 30, 2000, 06:59:00 PM »

Personally, I say that the P-47M, P-51H, Yak-3/VK108, Ki-100, Ta-152H, F8F-1, etc., should be the *next* set of planes that HTC models.

HTC needs to do something *different*. If they listen to most of the "numbers & impact" zealots and they'll get held hostage just like WB has been.

They should bust that barrier right now with a plane that was developed and built during WW2, but saw little combat or just missed it. The Macchi was a good start... now it's time to step forward once again.

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

wells · « **Reply #26 on:** January 30, 2000, 08:13:00 PM »

I'm with SnakeEyes on this one. Where's the fun of 'recreating' what's already been done, both in RL and in SIM form? I wanna intercept those friggin' backwards flying J7W's with a Sea Fury!

or...they could release planes in pairs, like the F8f with the F4f type of thing?

[This message has been edited by wells (edited 01-30-2000).]

MiG Eater · « **Reply #27 on:** January 30, 2000, 10:50:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
Personally, I say that the P-47M, P-51H, Yak-3/VK108, Ki-100, Ta-152H, F8F-1, etc., should be the *next* set of planes that HTC models.

HTC needs to do something *different*.

Sort of like a "Fantasy Arena/Planeset" in the tradition of fantasy football? This will look like an all out speed fest! :-) Sounds like the late war jets would fit in here too: the ME-262, Gloster Meteor, and the P-80 (which made it to England before war's end). I would love to see how the P-80's would have fared against the -262's. They wouldn't have nearly the advantage over the current plane in top speed and would be at a serious disadvantage in a turn fight or just about anything that didn't require a high speed dash. Wouldn't it be cool to see contrails?? =)

MiG

juzz · « **Reply #28 on:** January 30, 2000, 11:38:00 PM »

Why not go the other way, and have the early/pre-war planes: I-16, P-36, D.520, Gladiator, CR.42 etc?

The late-war speed kings would probably be quite boring to dogfight really.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #29 on:** January 31, 2000, 07:16:00 AM »

First of all, it is necessary to have a lot information about a plane prior to model it. So, I suppose most of the planes we are talking about are out of scope.
I think that AHT should model as many planes as they are able to, except those that never enter into combat with enemy planes.
Having a me262 or me163 is a good idea, just to recreate the real WWII engangements. The main arena could be divided in three year sets: 39/41,42/43,44/45, filtering the available planes for each one except for 44/45 period.
From my personal point of view, I would designed the arena as follows:
1 - Three year sets.
2 - Two teams: axis and allies.
3 - Two scenaries: Europe(east,west and mediterranean front) and Pacific.
This way there are six sub-arenas historically tuned.
To make this possible we need more Pacific fighters, transports and bombers. Also more german bombers and transports and perhaps even figthers (190A3, 190D9). I think that several versions of P47/P51/P38 are also a must as well as hurricane and early Spit versions. I know, I know, I'm asking for a lot, but the very hard enemy to beat is just WarBirds, did you remember?

As a side note, it could be a great idea to have strategic targets like factories and fuel depots whose destruction could imply less % of fuel at the bases and less bombs and rockets. Radio coverage is another important factor.