Author Topic: HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13  (Read 2987 times)

Offline jmccaul

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HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2000, 01:56:00 PM »
oops

[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 02-01-2000).]

Offline jmccaul

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HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2000, 02:01:00 PM »
Dolomite :
I see your point a good pilot can
still throw a P51 or F4U around in
a dogfight but they are not using
there speed in that situation the
only time it becomes useful is
running or chasing. The 51 is quick
 which is a major asset but yet
it isn't used in a 1v1 dogfight.
I'd say a 109 or spit would be able
to get the upper hand on the F4U or
P51 in most cases in a co-e level
merge.  

Fishu :
N1k2 and c205 were a stratergy by
HTC to get exotic planes whicch
represent certain countries and
you could certainly argue that the
Ta 152 should be included but i
just think it would be opening a
can of worms, as you well know if
you include the Ta 152 you can
include 5 other planes from
various countries which are
similarily uber.


  The Luftwaffe would though
benefit most from this trend though
but in real life much of these
planes were pushed into service
perhaps before they should have
been and fought aginst heavy odds
none of this wouldn't be
represnted.

  I did say personally i would
not like to see them modeled and
would like to see a line drawn at
aircraft in service in late 44 and
have numbers well past the 100 mark.
Rather than HTC concentrating on
these planes fill out the important
set. How can you have a plane like
the Ta 152 (67 produced - all varients)
and leave the most produced warplane
in history plane Il-2 Shturmovik.

 On the 262 it has every right to be
modeled under these criteria but if
you fly it you need never die pit your
nose down and your away, hardly the
ultimate test of skill. Do people really want it? if yes model it then but i'd
rather HTC didn't  

P.S. I'm pretty sure the meteor made
combat (i'll try and dig up the
reference) but was not as an advanced
a design as the 262.      

Offline jmccaul

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HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2000, 02:02:00 PM »
oops

[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 02-01-2000).]

Offline dolomite

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« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2000, 02:04:00 PM »
Jmccaul-

In a co-E engagement you are right. In a co-alt position where the 51 or F4 holds speed advantage, not necessarily. The speed can be traded for alt, and then the opposing fighter is in trouble. This isn't running, this is getting enough separation to reverse.  

You may be right about the 262 diving to safety, except consider this; the other side can fly 262's, too.  

Finally, the P-80 developed into a much better all-around fighter than the 262, and would have handed the 262 pilots their heads. The P-80 was only marginally slower but had much better handling.

[This message has been edited by dolomite (edited 02-01-2000).]

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2000, 03:01:00 PM »
Hmm, I thought that some 150 Ta 152 were built.

That plane represents something else than just getting an edge for LW pilots in the arena. It has certain mythical and what-if meaning. Similar with 262. Its reputation is unquestionable, even after almost 60 years.

Luftwaffe in 1944 was not just 109s and 190s, with the best planes being 109G-10 and 190A-8.

I know, neither RAF consisted of Spit IXs, there were later Marks.

US, however, seems to have its 1944 top birds (with P 38 on the way, it misses only the Jug).

Both RAF and Luftwaffe miss the best (and used in the field) performers of 1944.

Adding 109F and early G feels be like adding P 40 or P 39 to the 1944 arena. Only for sentimental purposes  

Now, please model the 1944, HTC  



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 02-01-2000).]

Offline jmccaul

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HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2000, 03:28:00 PM »
Dolomite :-

If a plane has an advantage it can
exploit it but if you give the example
of coming into the fight quicker i
could counter by saying the better
climb plane would come in higher  

Speed i still don't think top speed is
an asset in dogfight as to use it you
have to accelerate to your top speed
which you cannot do in a dogfight for extended periods. If you extend untill
you reach top speed i will be climbing
at 150 ias all this time and when
you reverse i will be much higher and
you will use your speed to run.

   

I think your confusing the Glouster
Meteor with the P-80. The Glouster was inferior to the 262 but did make it
into the war:-
---------------------------
The Gloster Meteor Mk.I was the
first operational British jet fighter,
and the first operational Allied jet fighter. It entered service with
616 Squadron in 1944, at about the same
time the Messerschmitt Me-262 was
entering service with Kdo262 (Later
Kommando Nowotny).
---------------------------

Hristo :-
I know why you'd like to see it i
personally wouldn't put any of those
sort of planes in (including the tempest) untill there wasn't any other planes
which made much more impact.

To be honest which Scenario would you
prefer BoB or taking off from a vulched field in a Ta 152 with a 5 to 1 numbers deficet. I just think HTC would make me happier personally if they concentrated
on scenario plane instead of main arena planes. I think though i am in the minority.    

[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 02-01-2000).]

Offline dolomite

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« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2000, 03:42:00 PM »
 
Quote
"By VE-day, two P-80's were in Italy readying for combat, two had reached England, and in all no fewer than 16 examples were flying."

Fighters of the U.S. Air Force, Robert F. Dohr, 1990

Ultimately the P/F-80 developed into a much better fighter, reaching 594 mph, and remaining in service in some form until October of 1955.

Won't argue on the speed thang anymo'!  

Offline MANDOBLE

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HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2000, 03:23:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by jmccaul:
I just think HTC would make me happier personally if they concentrated
on scenario plane instead of main arena planes. I think though i am in the minority.
:-

Agree with you. The main arena have several serious problems from my point of view:
1 - Sooner ot later all the people will be flying a very small set of planes. Obviously, if planes like Ta 152, Spit XIV or Tempest enter the main arena, no one will be willing to fly 109F, 109G2, 109G6, 190A8 , C.205, etc. All of them were very valuable for their time, but not in late 44 or 45.
2 - 109 vd 190? Spit vs P51? It doesn't seem to be much real, right?

And now some ideas to get out of those problems:

1 - Two teams (T1 and T2) distributed in the terrain as follows:

GGGGKKKAAAJJJJ  
GGGGKKKAAAJJJJ  
GGGGRRAAAAJJJJ  
GGGGRRRAAAJJJJ
GGGGRRRRRAJJJJ
GGGGRRRRRRJJJJ

G (T1): Bases with only german/italian planes.
A (T2): Bases with only USA planes.
K (T2): Bases with only UK planes.
R (T2): Bases with only russian planes.
J (T1): Bases with only japanese planes.

So, depending on the base you choice, you will have only a subset of the aircraft availabe to fly. And this is true unless you loose the base, in that case the base is owned by the sub-side that dropped the paratroops. So, for example, if a base in the russian zone is taken by a plane that took off from a japanese base, then that base will be owned by the axis, but have only japanese planes available.

2 - Year cycling. With the first point, the problem of Spit vs Spit was solved, but remains the problem of all the people just flying the best and newest aircraft available to each side. To solve this, simply create three year-sets: 39/41, 42/43, 44/45. And rotate them evey hour or so. This way, the aircraft available in each base is limited by its owner and by the time.

3 - But this is not enough. For each period, the people will be abusing of the top models for the corresponding years. Lets take into account the normal number of available aircraft of each type during those periods. So, having 60 people playing axis side in 44/45 period, perhaps only 5 of them can be flying the Ta 152. If all the 5 Ta 152 are flying, I'll see its name grayed in my hangar display.

From my point of view, all these changes are very easy to implement, and, perhaps, with them planes like 109F could have a long life in AH.

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2000, 09:41:00 AM »
Hristo: Buffing sounds good. I'll msg you if
I see you on the arena.  

About the Meteor: It was in service, but
didn't score any kills.  I don't think they
even saw, and thus ever engaged any enemy
aircraft...

Mandoble: That sounds like an interesting idea!

 
Quote
1 - Two teams (T1 and T2) distributed
in the terrain as follows: ....

The allies would be forced into a two-front
war, but that's how it was back then...
There's usually more allied pilots online
anyway, so that might even work!

 
Quote
2 - Year cycling. ...

I think a rolling plane set in the lines of
WB would work better, maybe a bit faster
though.  Each day would represent a period
of, say, about 1 year.  This way the whole
war could be played in about one week.  New
planes each day  

 
Quote
...having 60 people playing axis side
in 44/45 period, perhaps only 5 of them can
be flying the Ta 152. If all the 5 Ta 152
are flying, I'll see its name grayed in my
hangar display...

I think it is a bit unfair to limit the
better planes to just those who happen to be
in the arena sooner.

IMHO, it would be better to let each player
have 1 of each überplane per hour.  If you
manage to land the plane, you can take off
in it again.  If you crash it, you're forced
to fly the older models for the next hour!  

And if it wasn't clear, I'm in favor of the
two country arena.  Axis vs allies!  

Camo



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Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2000, 11:07:00 AM »
LLv34_Camouflage:

Another (and similar) idea about limiting super-plane numbers:
You dont need to be limited to one hour per
super-plane. You can use your super-plane as many times as you want. But you have a limited number of them per hour, for example two. If you loose your two super-planes you must to wait another hour to have them available.

Another benefict of having two teams (subdivided in 5) is to be able to eliminate the labels, except squadron and wingman ones.
Visual ID will be needed, german/italian/japanese? Then axis, else ally.

About the plane/period calibrated to one year per day, there is a big problem with the different local timesets, that usually determinates the time when you are able to fly. It should be quicker, perhaps a 2 years
per hour. This way you'll be sure to be able to fly any plane in a period of three hours
the only available day in the week you have
to play AH (for example).

Offline JoeMud

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« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2000, 12:22:00 PM »
"TA-152 and Dora?? Who wants a plane that anyone, even a rookie, can look good in? Let's get with a plane only REAL MEN can fly,"

Uhhhh You must be thinking of the spitfire.

Real men fly 190's


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May all spitfires explode on takeoff!

[This message has been edited by JoeMud (edited 02-02-2000).]

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2000, 04:15:00 AM »
Mandoble:

Re: Ûberplanes availability:

Yep, your suggestion is similar to mine, sounds good  


Re: Icons

I don't recommend turning off enemy icons.
Hardware becomes an issue otherwise.
A player with 640x480 would be in a much
worse situation than a player using
1600x1200...

I suggest enemy icons to pop up at shorter
ranges, say 2k.  Range would be visible from
500yds.  And this one is a must:  Put the
icon below the plane!!
 It is too easy to
track your shots - just keep the icon in your
gunsight!

Re: Rolling planeset:

Two years per hour is way too short.
My average sortie takes over half an hour.  
Consider "early -42" in a FW190A4. The worst
opponent would be a SpitV. I take off from a
rear field, grab alt and head for the action
20 mins later.  By now the year has changed
and I'm facing SpitIX's... For buffers this
would be untolerable. They take off in early
1944, and when they get to the target area,
they're facing Me262s...  

That short a planeset change time is
unacceptable, imho.

Timezone difference doesn't matter, because
it is the same everywhere.  A 24 hr period is
a 24hr period all around the world.

When the player base gets bigger, I hope HTC
will introduce several arenas, with different
theaters of operation and timeframes. Maybe
two of these would be open at a time, to keep
player levels high. This is pretty much the
same as a rolling plane set.

And then a separate historical arena with
Axis vs Allies, limited icon ranges  

JoeMud: Well said  

Camo
CO, Lentolaivue 34
Brewster's in AH!
"How about the power to kill a Yak from 200 yards away - with mind bullets!"

Offline jmccaul

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HTC and Co: Ta152 and Doras 9-13
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2000, 04:05:00 PM »
Leonid said =
===============================
All I know is if this uberplane
stuff continues, then I'm going to
be demanding the all-metal version of
the Yak-3, which was the fastest prop aircraft in history at something like
463mph.
================================

To which westy replied

================================
Sorry Leonid. The P47 M beat
that.

Bring em *all* out!
================================

Bring them all out ?

I don't know about that but here's one
at least
===========
The Sabre VII-powered Fury was perhaps
the fastest piston-engine aircraft ever built by Hawker, possessing a maximum
speed of 485 mph at 18,500 feet and 457
mph at 8000 feet. Range with two drop
tanks was 1480 miles. Initial climb rate
was 5240 feet, and an altitude of 24,000 feet could be attained in 6 minutes.
Service ceiling was 41,500 feet.
Weights were 9350 lbs empty, 12,130 lbs loaded. Armament consisted of four
20-mm Hispano Mk. V cannon in the
wings.
============================
(Were Mk. V Hispano cannons used on
any planes that made it in to the war?)

more on the engine
============================
3055 hp Napier Sabre VII twenty-four-cylinder liquid-cooled horizontal-H
engine.
============================

Imagine having that strapped to you.
Never made the war though but if it did
i wonder who would be more scared the
pilot or the opposition.  



Offline juzz

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« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2000, 11:15:00 PM »
The Tempest had Mk V Hispanos.

Hawker Sea Fury FB.11's of the RN and RAN flew huge numbers of A2G sorties during the Korean war and the RN ones shot down at least one Mig-15.

Forgot to mention, that the Hawker Fury was developed based on knowledge gleaned from Arnim Faber's captured Fw190A-3!  

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-03-2000).]

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2000, 07:02:00 AM »
Wasn't the Grumman F8F Bearcat designed after Grumman himself studied the same captured Fw190?

Pretty sure.

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