How the hell do they do that?????

[Bubbajj]

Been playing since tour 69. Never had a trainer, never had time/patience for it. As such, I tend to be lower on the learning curve than I should be after all this time. What's really been bugging me lately is a maneuver that I can't seem to duplicate and I'm falling victim to it more and more lately. Goes like this: Head on merge, both craft immelman up, neither get a solution so both go up and immelman again. Now at the top of the second Immel' the other plane seems to stop and pivot down right into me. Almost looks like a hammerhead from my perspective. I see this a lot with ponies, hogs and jugs. How is this thing that I can only call a stall turn accomplished. When I try to dupe it all I do is wallow and stall. The opposing pilots seem to be able to accomplish this and come out with perfect control. What is this?

[Steve]

Well one way to do it is too get flaps out on top.  If you are really slow you can chop throttle to avoid torque forces and just sort of hang there for a sec or two.  Personally, I use the torque to help my plane roll over on it's back if my target has stalled or is already going down. You have the stall limiter off right?

[moot]

Sounds like you're going too slow into that hammer reverse at the top.  You need to do things earlier (i.e. spread out over more time) when you're that slow, so that you're not exceeding the amount of lift available. 

[The Fugitive]

Turning off combat trim might help too. When slow at the top of an immel the CT tries to trim your nose up, and your plane kinda gets stuck in the air.

[bj229r]

Turning off combat trim might help too. When slow at the top of an immel the CT tries to trim your nose up, and your plane kinda gets stuck in the air.

Hmm I hadnt thought of that, I usually leave it on

[Saxman]

Been playing since tour 69. Never had a trainer, never had time/patience for it. As such, I tend to be lower on the learning curve than I should be after all this time. What's really been bugging me lately is a maneuver that I can't seem to duplicate and I'm falling victim to it more and more lately. Goes like this: Head on merge, both craft immelman up, neither get a solution so both go up and immelman again. Now at the top of the second Immel' the other plane seems to stop and pivot down right into me. Almost looks like a hammerhead from my perspective. I see this a lot with ponies, hogs and jugs. How is this thing that I can only call a stall turn accomplished. When I try to dupe it all I do is wallow and stall. The opposing pilots seem to be able to accomplish this and come out with perfect control. What is this?

In the case of the Hogs they may be using inside rudder to haul the nose back around on you. The Corsair has a hulkin' big rudder and a TON of rudder authority even at low speeds to go with it, so even though the F4U can get a little mushy in extended looping fights she can roll over on you in a blink if the pilot knows how to work his flaps and rudder together. That's one of my favorite tactics after a nose-on merge if I've got speed to burn: Pull vertical and roll to put the target at the center of my up/forward-up view. Continue rolling to keep him there and kick inside rudder, with a notch of flaps as necessary. I'd say about 80% of the time I get a shooting solution after the first merge this way.

[Ruah]

Maby unloading a little before you go for the second or third merge would help.  I tend to do this too and since I tend to fly the 9U, there is a real incentive to keep as much e as possible.

[RTHolmes]

yeah this is something that still nails me almost every time, and its really hard to see coming. you're pretty sure that you're both Co-E and pretty slow, yet the guy in your sights is suddenly pointing at you - like theyve pulled a 180

[bj229r]

In the case of the Hogs they may be using inside rudder to haul the nose back around on you. The Corsair has a hulkin' big rudder and a TON of rudder authority even at low speeds to go with it, so even though the F4U can get a little mushy in extended looping fights she can roll over on you in a blink if the pilot knows how to work his flaps and rudder together. That's one of my favorite tactics after a nose-on merge if I've got speed to burn: Pull vertical and roll to put the target at the center of my up/forward-up view. Continue rolling to keep him there and kick inside rudder, with a notch of flaps as necessary. I'd say about 80% of the time I get a shooting solution after the first merge this way.

Is the reversal from serious nose up attitude to diving more a horizontal flat spin (hard to put this into words sans pictures) via the rudder, or more from elevs as something of a flap-assisted loop?

[Saxman]

From his description he said "Hammerhead," so my first thought was the opponent was in a nose-high attitude and swapped ends on him with some combination involving the rudder.

[BaldEagl]

I know exactly the move he's talking about.  If you were to go up into a normal immelman you'd follow the loop around and from the side it would look like almost a perfect circle.  From his plane he's probably watching the guy go up through his up or up forward view.  Now, instead of continuing the normal loop over the top, when the opponent plane approaches the top, it swaps ends and comes back directly at his cockpit from his up view.  I used to, and still do occasionally get nailed by this one.  I think it's more of a flap and rudder assisted wingover but I could be wrong.

This move used to be almost exclusive to P-38's but I've seen more and more planes using it lately including Jugs and 190's among others.

[RTHolmes]

^^ thats what I was trying to say

[Mace2004]

First, film is always great with these questions.  It's sometimes very tough to explain something when we only have your pov of what happened. 

You have to remember that he's not the only one moving which can tend to make things look different then they actually are and that's why it's essential to film.  When it happens again, make sure you save your film and then review it from the "fixed" position with trails on.  This way you can really see what he did and can learn to recognize it from your cockpit view.  For instance you may have seen the other airplane "stop and pivot straight down" when all he's really doing is a simple and easily controlled slow speed wingover or rudder reversal.

From your description he could be doing anything from a wingover, rudder reversal, or even just a forward bunt, it's hard to say.

[Bubbajj]

I think baldeagle nailed it. This is seriously irritating as I can't seem to do it. I'd be dangerous if I cold make my plane swap ends 180 at the top of a loop like that.

[Bubbajj]

If someone could point me to a link that explains how to post the films I'll try to find one or two and post em up. I'll have to look into mace's suggestion about looking at it from both angles and with trails. An F4U pulled this on me the other day. I was in a zeke and that sucker came around on me from the top of a loop before I knew what the heck was going on. I need a trainer