Small Rant

[Kieren]

Don't do anything to the buffs- let them keep their alt performance.

Just let the fighters have their published alt performance.

I don't want to argue whether or not a fully-loaded B17 could really reach 35K. I doubt it could, but let's assume it did.

The following are published operational ceilings for these aircraft:

P51 41,500
Spit IX 42,000
F4U-1D 37,500
109F4 39,370
P47 43,000
P38L 44,000
N1K2J 35,302
C202 37,730
B17G 35,700


I don't know why the performances are as they are in AH, what numbers are used, whether it's a play-balance issue, or whatever. The simple fact remains: interception of high-alt B17's is impossible.

I tried a climb test to see how high the mustang would go. Got to 33K, and it just pooped out. True, I still had something like 500fpm climb, but I would never have made 41K, or anything close. ('course the 109 that ran into me musta been very surprised!)

With the ability to climb to alt off the map, then climb to alts that no fighter can reach, it becomes very quickly a discouraging and suspense-of-disbelief-jarring event.

 

[Saintaw]

I followed a Buff once (CaveJ, grrrrr!) up to 30K +....just to find myself without fuel right when I was Co Alting him....sigh...

------------------
Saw/Saintaw
BISHOP'S FINEST FLYING BRICK

DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[gatt]

[rant mode]

It is really amusing. While most fighters are underperforming in respect with the real ones, B17 are way overmodeled, like B29 that is. Real B17 boxes usually flew at 20-25K.

I for one never try to intercept high buffs. I dont want to get to 35K (wasting bucks and fuel) just to hunt some poor fellows.

I'll never fly scenarios against buffs modeled in this way. Hope HTC will fix it. Maybe B17 pilots will get bored .... who knows.

[/rant mode]

[Pongo]

Wolfs good bye mission was a 3 buff hit on our HQ last night. We were warned as they approached 20. 4 of us took off from 20. I was in a G10, the rest where 205s I think. We intercepted at 28k. 1st one was stopped before it got to HQ, Second one was dropped after first drop but befor enough was droped on HQ. The last one got the HQ(way to go bloom) but we got him egressing near 19.
I think total losses where 3 interceptors for the 3 bombers. I am sure that the buffs fly too high but HTC seems to have it pretty close. This mission seemed balanced about right.
The compression of the terrain makes it hard to get warning on the StatosBombers but if they have increased the climb of the 17 it is probebly to let it climb in such a restricted distance.

------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[juzz]

Thing is, from 35k B-17's and B-29's couldn't hit squat with any accuracy. If they could have, then during WW2 they would have flown every mission up that high.

If bombing was modelled properly(dispertion, a real bombsight etc.) in AH, then the bombers would have to get much, much lower to be able to hit those acks...

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-07-2000).]

[Pyro]

Operational ceiling- altitude at which 500 fpm climb occurs.

Service ceiling- altitude at which 100 fpm climb occurs.

Absolute ceiling- altitude at which 0 fpm climb occurs.

Ceiling varies with weight.  For example the absolute ceiling of the P-51D varies from about 37 to 41k.  

I've pointed out some facts about the B-17 in another thread.  If indeed it is "overmodeled" as Gatt puts it, show me.  Go to oldmanuals.com and get the B-17 manuals on CD.  They're not expensive and they have a ton of detailed info in there.  

Juzz is correct about why this is.  It's not the performance of the plane.  We have some additions to the bombsight coming up that will impact this.



------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."

[gatt]

Well, I was obviously talking about *relative* performance.
Actually its almost impossible to reach and intercept buffs flying at 30K+ (sometimes still climbing) even with good climbers like the 109.
Last evening I was flying a 109G-2 with WEP and about 40% fuel. No way to reach a B17 above me at +34K. Is it right?

Multiple choices:

a) the 109 doesnt have enuff hp;
b) the B17 has too much hp;
c) Gatt doesnt know how to climb and intercept a buff.

Well, you can always choose c) ...  

[Kieren]

Agreed Pyro. This is why I stopped at 33K- I had 500fpm at that point. Still, the ceiling numbers I quoted were for operational ceilings. I will look for more references, but I'm pretty sure they will back my point. The mustang in my test appeared to be 8k below its published operational ceiling. This would be a considerable difference if evidence can back that up.

Look, I know many of the reasons the B17's operate so well here- they operate in (a) theoretically perfect environment/conditions. It still remains clear that there is an imbalance in the performance regimes of fighters and bombers, and that difference can be/is exploited in a detrimental way.

Or maybe I'm just being a tighta**.  

[Vermillion]

Actually there is a fairly easy way to induce the Buff's to operate at more normal altitudes.

Basically, you add a "deviation" factor to the bomb drop.

So if you are bombing from reasonable altitudes, say 20k, then you will get very close to your "crosshair" (but NOT the laser guided sight we have now). Then as you get higher the deviation becomes exponentially worse.

So by the time you are trying to bomb from 35k+ you will be lucky to hit within a couple of hundred yards of your target.

This improves gameplay, and adds a little more realism to our bomber modeling, without needing whole squadrons of bombers to lightly damage an airfield.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

[MiG Eater]

I spoke with a B-24 pilot last week about operational altitudes and found out one interesting difference between operational and absolute capabilities: The ability to fly formation.  He said that above 20k, the plane got very sloppy on the controls and caused the formations to widen to unacceptable amounts.  The B-17's flew higher, in the 22k-26k range, albeit noticably slower.  Only on rare occasions would you see a bomber flown over Europe above 30k due to the cold and control problems.  

We are also flying airplanes unaffected by wear, battle damage, overuse, poor fuel, breakdowns, crew fatigue and the host of other things bomber crews faced day in and day out.  We can fly planes here by the book since they are essentially in brand new condition everytime we take them up.  Hence the performance we see.

MiG

[CptTrips]

Pyro,

Good news on the bombsight.  However, dispersion is of equal or higher importance.

The amount of air mass the bombs drop through should proportionally effect dispersion.  They should be lucky to get one within the perimeter of the base at 35k much less pickle barrel one into a gun emplacement not more than 20ft in diameter.


This might be pretty cool.  It might require 10 plane mass carpet bombing of a target if they want to do it at 35k.  


How about contrails to distinguish bombers from fighters at long distances.  


Keep up the good work.

Wab

[Pongo]

If mass bombers where needed to take the ack at a field down, it would probably have to stay down longer or something.
How about the laser acks need to be hit by bombers but smaller(50 cal or 7.92mm) guns pop up arround the field to harras but can be taken out by on call jabos...


------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[bloom25]

Thx pongo for the kind words.  Our 3 b17 formation was at 26k feet when we finally got to HQ.  (It was Fox29 farewell flight as well.   Unfortunately he was the first to go down, as he had taken off earlier, but only was carrying 25% fuel.  He was empty by the time we were over hq, so he had to drop down and attempt to distract the interceptors.)  After the first 2 bomb drop passes Wolf and I made, we both turned in opposite directions.  I extended much farther than Wolf, and also attempted to pick up some more alt.  Fortunately for me, every single interceptor, except one Spitfire, left me for Wolf.  Wolf, despite the overwhelming numerical superiority, managed to take 2 down with him, and damaged another.  Just as Wolf destroyed the first interceptor, the spit suddenly peeled off my 6, and dove on Wolf (who was now over 9k away.)  I knew this was my last chance, so I made a tight turn away from Wolf back toward the hq.  I had a perfectly clear run to the target and dropped my last 2 bombs right
on the building.  Somehow that did the trick and I received the "HQ destroyed" message.  Now I had to get home.  I immediately turned away from the now approaching dot swarm, toward 20.  Of course it was inevitable that I would soon be surrounded with f4u-1cs and n1ks, so I nosed down to gain some speed to improve my gunnery time.  Not 2 minutes later a n1k dove at me with alt.  I managed to repel him several times, and I think I got part of his left wing.  He dove away, and most likely RTBd.  Not soon after my beautiful b17 was transformed into a smoking lawndart.  (Somehow my plane exploded at around 10k before I could bail.)
So...there it is, the ultimately successful, albeit costly final bombing run with Wolf37 as CO of the THUNDERBIRDS.

Salute to the rooks , you bravely defended your homeland yet again.

bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Kieren]

Addendum to original post:

I checked multiple references again, and the majority seem to state the above numbers, though accurate, reflect service ceilings (as per Pyro's definition). I stand corrected.

But in a way, the point is moot. The question is about the relative performances of all aircraft, and to that end the numbers verify (to me) a possible problem. The relationship of the aircraft and performance remains the same whether these are operational or service ceilings.  

[Minotaur]

I know of one non-BUFF plane in the AH set that climbs and handles well at 30k+.  A pleasant surprize.  

Mino