Small Rant

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
Operational ceiling- altitude at which 500 fpm climb occurs.

Service ceiling- altitude at which 100 fpm climb occurs.

Absolute ceiling- altitude at which 0 fpm climb occurs.

Ceiling varies with weight.  For example the absolute ceiling of the P-51D varies from about 37 to 41k.  

I've pointed out some facts about the B-17 in another thread.  If indeed it is "overmodeled" as Gatt puts it, show me.  Go to oldmanuals.com and get the B-17 manuals on CD.  They're not expensive and they have a ton of detailed info in there.  

Juzz is correct about why this is.  It's not the performance of the plane.  We have some additions to the bombsight coming up that will impact this.

You do forget one fact, that B-17 couldn't run at full throttle for long without overheating its engines.
In AH we can just ride up to 35k with full throttle and engine temperature doesnt raise, WRONG.

[juzz]

True, but even with a realistic limit on full throttle time they could still get that high, it would just take longer.

[SnakeEyes]

That might be true Juzz... of course, assuming that people had to run buffs at a realistic power setting, and that someone had the patience to let the aircraft climb at 100 - 500 FPM for a while, a WW2 B-17 couldn't glide home from Germany.  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[lemur]

For me the real issue is that we need alt data on incoming buffs. How can you plan an effective intercept if you don't know the alt?

I can definitely see that WW2 radar didn't have very effective alt reporting capabilities since all they could measure was distance and angle of the reflection. i.e. from far away it's hard to figure the alt. When he's right over you his distance *is* his alt. Still more an art than a science, but people got very good at this art  

So model this. Counters in enemy terrritory = no alt info, once he's 2 sectors from your base you get closest 5K and once he's a dot on your radar you get closest 1k.

Just add some shading to the clipboard map bars showing height and a 'shadow' under the dots.

That way there's still an 'art' to reading the alt data  

[Toad]

The massed buff 24K formation idea was just tried last Sunday in the little mini-scenario.

The buff formation was cut to pieces in less than two minutes. One buff, out of about 18, made it to the target despite rules preventing the fighters from striking until the buffs actually crossed into the "homeland" and despite a horde of P-51 escorts. Almost all buffs went down in less than 2 minutes.

Fighters have the clear advantage in AH EXCEPT at the 30+ altitudes. Many fighter pilots are way, way too eager, however, and pay the supreme price for stupidity. <yeah, I've done that too   >

30K alt in AH is what keeps a buff alive. Even then, a fiter at 33K can have an easy time with at 30K buff if he is patient and smart. I've got the scars to prove that too    

Now if we somehow remove this single "ability" or "advantage" from the buff corps, they won't live long.

Further, if we seriously degrade the ability of a buff to hit a target from an altitude at which he has a fair chance of survival, it's going to greatly reduce the number of buffs you see in the air. Who will fly out on a "certain death" mission on a regular basis? Maybe a new squad, the Hezbollah Suicide Bombers  

Now I'm not a big time buffer, but I do it. Especially when my connex is poor and fighters are out of the question. I really don't care if HTC makes these changes or not.

So do what you wish with buff alt and bombsight accuracy but just remember every little change is going to affect other things in the game.

Gameplay will not be the same after these changes. Field capture will be much different.

Most likely, these changes will inevitably lead to other gripes and even more changes.

But that'll keep HT and Pyro off the streets  

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-29-2000).]

[Kieren]

Toad-

I didn't know we broke any ROE regarding interception- sorry if we did!

I think the buffs were caught by an overwhelming number of fighters, and that is where the need is. We can trim down the LW a bit, and then see what happens.

Splitting the attacking force would have divided the LW considerably, and that would have helped the Allies out in many ways.

You take the buffs to 30K and you can forget about 190's, simple as that. Above that alt the B17 and 190 have about the same climb rate and speed.

There is a happy medium in here somewhere.  

[Pongo]

Keiren, toad was saying that inspite of the rule and the fact it was followed the buffs got creamed.
Lemur assume the buffs are at 28k if you guess wrong then you have an alt advantage, or at least you are close.
Toad
Right on....people cant look at the whole system it seems and see that if you pull out one stick the marbles start to fall.
I wish that more of the people that have drastic recomendations would follow through and consider the effect on the whole game. Include that in their posts and see if they want to post it after they have thought about the domino effect on all of the other facets of the game.  Try to keep in mind HTCs general concept of the game. One of the big things has to be that all of these fighters where developed in the context if intercepting or escorting bombers, many of the designs dont make sence without bombers. Like a Ferrari F40 without paved roads.  

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Kieren]

Yes, I see that now Pongo! *smack*

No one likes the words "play balance" but unfortunately this definitely a case where it needs to be considered.

35K buffs are untouchable, and we all know it.

25K buffs get butchered if the fighters have time to get into position, and we all know it.

Maybe we should run a scenario and let everyone go as high as they like. No, really. I would be curious how many bombers would get caught.

[Toad]

Long post..sorry...

Kieren,

No, I don't think you guys broke any rules. Quite the contrary, I think you did exactly what you were supposed to do.

I just used the scenario as an illustration of what the real situation is when considering fighters versus bombers.

Lots of the previous posters refer to using formations of buffs "realistically" to solve perceived arena problems. Well, we now have a single data point in this area: the last scenario. Those who flew in it KNOW the results. (I like the mini-scenarios, btw. Look forward to more of them. Hoot Mon! Thx to Cave, the wee bitty worker!)

My point is as Pongo says. The massed formation of buffs just got obliterated in literally seconds when confronted by a large group of fighters. Fighters can kill massed buffs at 24k quite easily.

Single fighters (flown intelligently) can kill single buffs at 24k quite easily.

Single F4's or 205's(flown intelligently) at 30K can kill buffs quite easily if they have LOTS of patience. I've been on both ends of that equation.

Not all the fighters do well up high, and there seems to be a modeling discrepancy in some aircraft here. But, like with the guns, I trust HTC to give us a good game.

I suspect the bombers are the way they are because of gameplay. Consider arena numbers; most nights you have about 20-30 players on each side.

Do you REALLY think you'll be able to talk even 10 of them into launching a formation B17 raid? Do you  REALLY think half of them can stay in formation for the hour it will take to climb and get to the target? Do you REALLY think, that after we degrade the sight into a carpet-bombing tool that they'll actually do any damage? Do you really think they'll want to do that again, especially when 5 fighters roar in and kill them all in 1 minute?  

The answer is "maybe". To make this sort of thing work will require many, many changes to gameplay and scoring. Surviving a buff mission and getting eggs just close to the target would have to be high scoring. The damage you do to a country if you succeed would have to be dramatically increased to make it worth the effort. On and on and on.

It's not going to be just one, quick "adjust the bomb sight" change or something. It will be the beginning of many, many changes to rebalance gameplay to make up for the bombers high vulnerability, low survivability and inability to hit anything.

I'm not against change. These games HAVE to change to stay fresh and improve and stay interesting.

I'm simply saying that there won't be "one minor little adjustment to the bombsight". When buffs can't hit anything from their "safe" altitude, they'll come down and be quickly and easily killed. How many times will that happen before a guy just basically quits buffing?

Then, we'll have to have more change.  

[Kieren]

Toad-

That's a very fair assessment of the situation.

I'm not against buffs having a fighting chance- really, I'm not. Check my scores, I buff too.  

Likewise, I don't want it too easy to fly fighters.

What I want is the nebulous place where it is difficult to fight one against the other. What we have here are two examples of the extremes. At the time I posted this originally, our side had just endured another 6x35K B17 attack on HQ, and there wasn't a darned thing we could do about it.

I was in the previous Scenario(the one before this) and was a 17. Same thing happened, but earlier- we were cut to ribbons. And no, I don't think we'll have many people eager to fight in the Scenarios as buffs if that continues.

Still, we need to find a way to develop ROE for the Scenarios that will give each side a fair chance to be successful. We haven't found that balance yet, but we are getting closer.

As far as flight models are concerned and the MA, I won't chase any B17 over 28-30K anymore, period. It doesn't work, and it's made worse by the open channel taunt that invariably follows. Let those that do it "win".