Author Topic: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM  (Read 7452 times)

Offline mechanic

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2009, 12:54:05 AM »
I think your testing is wrong BnZs. The speeds you can build in the dives are a factor in this, not how well each loadout zoom climbs from 400mph exactly in level flight.


A correct test would be irrelavent to speed. Start at 10,000ft and dive full power till you cross 1000ft ASL then do a smooth 3G pull to shift x climb. See what happens then. I dont know what will.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 12:58:40 AM by mechanic »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2009, 02:31:30 AM »
I think that there is something different going on when fighting an A20 against a more nimble fighter and, while it's related to E it isn't that the A20 has an inherent energy advantage. 

Most guys who fight in the A20 (or at least fight in it well) know that they don't have a turn fighter so they will always fight an energy fight.  Most fighters, when going against an A20 will almost immediately go to an angles fight thus scrubbing off much of their E giving the impression that the A20 is in some way different.  It isn't, it's just that it's being flow correctly given it's capabilities.  I do agree that as a bomber it's certainly unique, especially given it's flaps and ability to fight slow when necessary but within AH but it's still just an airplane that follows the same rules as the others.  I've learned, when running up against good A20 guys like Humble and Cobia that an E fight works the best against them. 

Just an anecdote here:  I met up with a good A20 pilot a few months ago, co-alt and pretty close to co-speed.  I was in a 109F and decided to go for the E fight.  Over the course of a great fight I consistently gained altitude on him without getting slow and then just stayed slightly above him until I could convert my advantage to angles.  Another way to look at this is that the A20 HAD to turn nose low and trade altitude for E while the 109 didn't.  If the A20 retains E better than the smaller fighter then I should not have been able to do this.

When you take into consideration the advantages that the A20 does have, a saws'all gun package, good flaps, good power to weight (for a bomber) and good slow speed handling, it can certainly be a potent package and a very fun fight but more to the point guys who fly them know about E and how to use it otherwise they're just another target.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2009, 07:52:08 AM »
BnZs your zoom test is actually testing zoom and climb, to test just zoom alone you need to kill the engine as you go vertical (feathering the prop too will amplify the difference). P=mv so the heavier aircraft will top out higher as it has more momentum. the lighter aircraft will top out higher in a climb test as F=ma. in a zoom-climb, the higher the thrust/weight ratio, the more significant climb is relative to zoom.

as for the hypothetical, the heavier aircraft will zoom-climb better. the have the same thrust/weight and drag so the climbrate component will be the same, the heavier aircraft has more momentum so will zoom better. :)
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Offline BnZs

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2009, 08:02:43 AM »
I think your testing is wrong BnZs. The speeds you can build in the dives are a factor in this, not how well each loadout zoom climbs from 400mph exactly in level flight.


A correct test would be irrelavent to speed. Start at 10,000ft and dive full power till you cross 1000ft ASL then do a smooth 3G pull to shift x climb. See what happens then. I dont know what will.

Mech:
I'm trying to see how well each airplane retain converts excess speed into height. Therefore, starting with equal speeds is logical. The way I test is the closest approximation I can come up with to how zoom actually ends up being used in combat and still be a side-by-side comparison.


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Offline BnZs

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2009, 08:04:34 AM »
BnZs your zoom test is actually testing zoom and climb, to test just zoom alone you need to kill the engine as you go vertical (feathering the prop too will amplify the difference). P=mv so the heavier aircraft will top out higher as it has more momentum. the lighter aircraft will top out higher in a climb test as F=ma. in a zoom-climb, the higher the thrust/weight ratio, the more significant climb is relative to zoom.

as for the hypothetical, the heavier aircraft will zoom-climb better. the have the same thrust/weight and drag so the climbrate component will be the same, the heavier aircraft has more momentum so will zoom better. :)

No, I do not need to kill the engine when testing zoom climb unless you expect that glide-mode combat will become common in the MA. Trying to see how well these airplanes perform in the vertical as actually used in combat you see.
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Offline humble

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2009, 08:08:48 AM »
I've got no idea how you separate the "zoom" from the climb. The A-20 has very poor sustained climb performance but exceptional zoom. The P-47 is the same way. If you view pony vs jug, the pony really has to E fight the jug (especially the D11) unless the pony driver has exceptional T&B skills a jug will eat a pony up in an angles fight. I agree with Mace 100%, you never go angles with an A-20...always suck the E out then pick it apart...

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Offline BnZs

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2009, 08:12:49 AM »
Did my JugN vs. JugN over and over, as already described.

Basically things were very close, I was always able to wring a little more out of the light Jug though. Got to be the extra E loss during the pull into vertical with the heavy jug that is doing it. When dealing with identical airplanes, I think we can safely say carrying ballast has no advantages that are worth it, but y'all already knew that. :devil
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Offline mechanic

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2009, 08:15:17 AM »
Mech:
I'm trying to see how well each airplane retain converts excess speed into height. Therefore, starting with equal speeds is logical. The way I test is the closest approximation I can come up with to how zoom actually ends up being used in combat and still be a side-by-side comparison.



Indeed, yet the initial idea was how mass contributes to Boom and Zoom. The boom part being a diving attack where mass and momentum play a part. Does the heavier loadout provide more momentum in the dive which then translates to zoom? That is the question at stake here. Not a vertical climb test from equal starting.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2009, 08:21:57 AM »
well there are 2 components to the zoom-climb, momentum and climbrate. if you want to separate and quantify the relative effects my suggestion will let you do that. if you just want the net result of both, then your method is fine.

Does the heavier loadout provide more momentum in the dive which then translates to zoom?

yes it does. whether it results in a better zoom-climb will depend on the thrust/weight of the aircraft. low thrust/weight means the heavier aircraft will zoom-climb better, high thrust/weight will mean the lighter aircraft will zoom-climb better :)
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Offline mechanic

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2009, 08:26:05 AM »
ah good i thought it sounded right, thanks holmes. Hold fast, im doing some testing in the DA, back in 10 mins.


ok, my results are a bit boring.

In this order for the test film

1 - P47N - 8  guns full ammo - 50% fuel -  min prop - max 4G on initial pull

2 - P47N - 6  guns full ammo - 50% fuel -  min prop - max 4G on initial pull

3 - P47N - 8 guns full ammo - 100% fuel - min prop - max 4G on initial pull

4 - P47N - 8 guns full ammo - 100% fuel - Max power + wep - max 2G zoom climb

5 - P47N - 6 guns light ammo - 100%fuel - Max power + wep - max 2G zoom climb


http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P47.ahf


The results to me said more weight is better for the bnz flyer, especialy in the non-powered tests. The difference in final altitude is minimal here, but so is the weight difference. I'm now off to test larger weight difs.


edit 2:

2 - P47N - 6  guns full ammo - 50% fuel -  min prop - max 4G on initial pull

3 - P47N - 8 guns full ammo - 100% fuel - min prop - max 4G on initial pull

These two tests both reached 12.7k. Proving without doubt that more weight aids momentum in a zoom climb.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 09:02:40 AM by mechanic »
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Offline dtango

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2009, 09:20:34 AM »
BnZs your zoom test is actually testing zoom and climb, to test just zoom alone you need to kill the engine as you go vertical (feathering the prop too will amplify the difference). P=mv so the heavier aircraft will top out higher as it has more momentum. the lighter aircraft will top out higher in a climb test as F=ma. in a zoom-climb, the higher the thrust/weight ratio, the more significant climb is relative to zoom.

as for the hypothetical, the heavier aircraft will zoom-climb better. the have the same thrust/weight and drag so the climbrate component will be the same, the heavier aircraft has more momentum so will zoom better. :)

Cutting out thrust and chopping throttle, mass becomes a significant factor.  But that would be an incorrect result because thrust plays a big part in the equation.  As BnZ's pointed out in the world of ballistics yes greater mass will retain energy longer.  But aircraft don't operate in a ballistic only regime.  That's why BnZ's original test showed what it showed with the lighter aircraft topping out higher. 

In the end the aircraft with the greatest average value of PS will always zoom higher.  Given the same aircraft, the one with greater weight has a lowever average PS value which means the lighter aircraft will zoom higher.

Like I said, I don't know of any other way to show this without having to do some modelling to demonstrate.  But of course you have the AH FM to test it out :).

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Offline chewiex

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2009, 09:38:12 AM »
 :huh All this sounds Greek to me. Never been good at understanding physics anyways. So, here's my question...I have seen "zoom climb" referenced all over the place in the forum posts and have never really seen a good explanation or example of what a "zoom-climb" is. Is there a specific G pull for a zoom or is it a just a high speed pull into pure vertical or is there an area of AoA degree that meets the criteria for a zoom climb.
My idea of a zoom climb, for example, is a Pony dropping in on say a Jug at 450 TAS, take your shot and pull immediately into the pure vertical to gain as much alt for separation and re-attack as possible. Is this a reasonable example of a "zoom-climb"? Or would an egress of say 45 - 50 degree climb out at full power be more of a reasonable example? Call me ignorant, I just don't really get it.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2009, 11:19:39 AM »


In the end the aircraft with the greatest average value of PS will always zoom higher.  Given the same aircraft, the one with greater weight has a lowever average PS value which means the lighter aircraft will zoom higher.




Well my test shows otherwise. The non powered part we agree on. The full powered flight tests still produced a greater conversion of 15,000ft into a zoom climb by the havier aircraft.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2009, 11:40:53 AM »
:huh All this sounds Greek to me. Never been good at understanding physics anyways. So, here's my question...I have seen "zoom climb" referenced all over the place in the forum posts and have never really seen a good explanation or example of what a "zoom-climb" is.

A Zoom Climb is basically any climb with a rate of climb is greater than your sustained climb rate (the one you can see on the charts in hangar). You are using your kinetic energy (speed) to go up, it's basically a conversion of kinetic energy into potential energy (altitude).

Of course, you will get slower and slower, and at one point this kinetic energy (speed) is exausted. Then your engine alone is responsible for taking you higher, you are now in a sustained climb.


It's like in a roller coaster: At the beginning, your car is pulled up the 1st hill by cable (=engine), until it reaches the peak. This part is a sustained climb
When the car goes over the top, dives down, and goes up again on the next hill without any cable, just by it's own momentum - that's zoom climb.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 11:51:10 AM by Lusche »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: A fundemental view on Weight and E state and its role in ACM
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2009, 12:23:30 PM »
I love these discussions.  My first CO always liked to pose questions like these during All Officer Meetings and it's surpising the wide variety of interpretations and misinterpretations.  One of his favorites was to ask, "assuming an F14 can fly at the speed of light and it turns its landing light on...what happens to the light?  A...the light goes forward at twice the speed of light. B...the light doesn't shine at all. or C...the light goes backwards like a shock wave.  I, being practical kinda guy, chose D....you rip your landing gear off.

Anyway....in these discussions you have to realize that in the real world you cannot isolate one single factor, such as momentum, and achieve much insight for the pilot into the total picture of what an airplane will do.  That's why concepts and formulas such as Ps become important because they take the total of the equation including mass, thrust, drag, gravity, etc., into account to tell you what all the individual factors taken together really mean to a guy in the cockpit. 

Also, a zoom climb without power is meaningless unless you're low, your engine quits and you need to bailout/eject.  Overall though, other individual forces are combined in the significance of Ps.  That goes to my original comment regarding Humble's suggestion regarding E=MC2.  In isolation, total E doesn't really mean much, it's only when it's put to use within the context of the rest of the aerodynamic and physics equations that much meaningful information is gained.  Even the idea of Energy Height is only useful as an academic means to compare two aircraft (in a relatively inaccurate comparison at that) or to use as basic instruction regarding the transformation between potential and kinetic energy but is otherwise meaningless to the guy in the cockpit because it assumes no losses and no atmosphere.

As far as the discussion regarding a dive then climb, some are missing other, more important, details while focusing on momentum.  Let's take the extremes for illustration to prove the point.  We start again with two identical aircraft but of different mass.  For simplicity we'll assume zero thrust and drag.  Both dive and then pull 4g across the bottom into a zoom.  The conclusion that some have reached is that the additional weight aides the downward acceleration and this "stored" momentum helps the heavier aircraft outzoom the other. 

First, the idea of "extra" acceleration in the dive is just wrong but we'll define the question as "in a pure vertical maneuver (dive or zoom), which airplane outperforms the other?" Here's a very basic point of view we should all be familiar with even without having taken physics and calculus.  Acceleration in the dive and deceleration in the zoom due to gravity is identical for both, and it is completely independant on their relative weights/mass.  Both planes will reach the same speeds and distance traveled in either a dive or zoom at the same time.  For reference see:  "Pisa, Leaning Tower Of" and "Galileo Galilli".  Specifically regarding momentum (P=mV), we hold mass constant (I figure that at these speeds the conversion of mass to energy per Einstein is rather small)  and the only variable is velocity and, since Galileo proved the velocity for both airplanes will be the same at each point in the curve, then momentum of the dive and climb cancel out.

More relevant to the real world and as others have pointed out, there's that "identical" 4g pull which isn't really the same for both aircraft weights.  The heavier one has to pull a higher AOA to achieve the same 4G pull and creates much greater drag and E loss in the pull.

So, the dive/climb question comes out to this.  Assuming identical aircraft except for weight the heavier aircraft will not zoom as high as the lighter aircraft because of losses due to drag during the pull and higher drag during any portion in which lift is being generated.  That leaves us with a negative energy aspect (drag) which can only be offset by a positive energy aspect (thrust) and the heavier aircraft has inferior Ps.

For those trying to test this, the problem is most likely in technique vice physics.  Pilot technique is essential when coming up with repeatable data.  Small factors such as an acceleration or deceleration prior to a dive. The consistency and smoothness of a pull. Trim, finding pure vertical, etc., all makes flight test the challenge that it is.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 12:25:45 PM by Mace2004 »
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