Pyro/Nate: Could you add another tank type please?

[leonid]

My choices:
either,
 
or,
 

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Was the Sherman so good? I saw on history channel the interview of a US Sherman commander who said that crews had low moral because they knew german tanks were better, especially german shells penetrating Shermans like butter. but he didn't explained in what circumtances nor which period.

Now, I know nothing in old tanks, anybody can explain something short and not too tecky for me please?

[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 06-28-2000).]

[Dune]

The best thing about the Sherman was that there were a bunch of them.  They were incredibly reliable.

I believe a Sherman was about a match for a PZ IV.  But it was a dead duck for Tigers and Panthers.  The 88 of a Tiger or 75 of a Panther would go right through a Sherman from any side.  To kill either of these, a Sherman needed to get around behind them and get close.

Usually this was done by several Shermans at once and several of them died doing it.

A German tank officer said "It would take 9 Shermans to kill a Tiger.  Unfortunately there were usually 10 of them."

This is what happens when you let General Motors build your tank.  It ain't fancy, but they run like hell and you can build them like crazy.

Later Shermans were upgunned and had more armor added to them, but this decreased some of their speed.

FYI, I met a man who was a Sherman commander in Europe.  He had 2 of the blown out from under him.  But, while he was in the rear to get a new Sherman, they gave him one of the first Pershings that arrived.  He said he went looking for a Panther.  Unfortunatly his company commander found him first and "traded" tanks with him.  He had his third Sherman blown out from under him later that week  .

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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

[BigJoe]

Since the sun now sets in the land of AH could ya start with the PzKpfw Panther Ausf. G equiped with a bildwandler arrangement of the FS1250 night vision device?  Next I would like to comment that the T-34/85 or other late model Russian tanks are not invincible against German armor consider the Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Tiger II:
Speed
 Road          38 km/h
 Cross Country 17 km/h
Weight 68000kg
Crew 5
Armor
 Front turret 180mm
 Front armor  150mm
 Side turret   80mm
 Side armor    80mm
 Turret rear   80mm
 Armor rear    80mm
 Top armor     40mm
Turret Traverse 360 degrees
 19 to 77 seconds depending on engine rpm
 used to drive hydraulic turret drive.
Armament
 88mm KwK 43 L/71 & 3x7.92mm MG34/42
 1xMG at hull, coax and cupola positions
Ammo
 88mm - 80 to 86 rounds
 7.92 - 5850

Armor penetration at 30 degree from vertical at 2000 meters using the following rounds
Panzergranate 39: 132mm
Panzergranate 40/43: 153mm
and it only gets worse as you get closer  

[Jigster]

In response to the Shermans, yes they had extreme problems with Tigers, and even more so with the Panthers.

The M4A3E2-76 was an up gunned version of the M4A3E2 "Jumbo" Sherman that had an all new turrent cast that, at the time, was one of the only US tanks capable of withstanding shots from a Tiger or Panther with any success. The 76mm was a decent AT gun, even capable of frontal shots to the Tiger (it's armor is not sloped) but not the Panther.
The stories most hear are from the M4A31 crews that had the lowly 75mm CS infantry gun, quite pityful at attacking any of the heavy German iron. The Jumbo Sherman had some engine and drive train componets reworked too, from the extra weight. (it weights about 5 more tons then the Easy Eight!) with almost no speed loss.

Pershings are great tanks, but saw little use in the ETO and is..as we are trying to avoid I guess, a 1945 machine. Besides you can't have a game without a Sherman at some point  

I would love to see ANY of the Panther series, but, there would definatly need to be a Jumbo or a KV series to deal with that monster. Funny as it is, every one thinks the Tiger was an upgrade from the Panther, while it's actually the other way around. The 88mm is more than capable but the Panther's 75mm is absolutely awsome.

The Tiger II would not fair to good in Aces High I think. While unstoppable in combat, it's fuel consumption (more then 2 gallons a mile avg) and speed off a good hard road or pityful. It's monster weight and extremely strained drive train allow it to climb hill of 10 degrees or less, and it would probably take the same roll as the real Tiger II did, as a defensive unit.

But if the Tiger II should be used, an IS-2 or IS-3 Iosef Stalin would have to be considered. They were blow for blow, pretty equal tanks.

Btw BigJoe the KV-1 series are NOT late war monsters...they came out around between 1939-1941...when the Germans were still making use of 37 and 50mm guns on the Pz(38) and Pz III series. KV-1's were to Germans as the Tigers were to the US crews. (Legend has it the developement of the Tiger came from the KV-1, as it is well known the Panther series was designed incoperating the armor like the T-34 did; well sloped)

There are three tank hunters that would probably make any US or British crew wet their pants on sight...the Jagdpanter, a Panter based TD with the 88mm kwk (Capable of over 4km kill shots)

The Elefant, easily the heaviest German tank made prior to the Tiger II and Jagdtiger. Also armed with the 88mm kwk it was a scary sight in 42-43.

And the Jagdtiger. The Biggest, most heavily armed armored fighting vehicle of the war. A 128mm AT gun and extremely thick armor. Talk about unbalancing  

so... since we're interested in late war stuff here ya go  

A note, the Tiger, Tiger II, Panter series and the Pershing had turn in place gear. I believe these were the only ones equipped with the gear to do that during the entire war.

- Jig

IS-2 "Iosef Stalin"

Speed  37.0 km/h
Off Road  10.0 km/h
Rev Speed  19.0 km/h
Body Mass  46.0 tons

Front Armor  174.0 mm
Side Armor  122.0 mm
Rear Armor  72.0 mm
Front Turret  160.0 mm
Side Turret  110.0 mm
Rear Turret  90.0 mm
Top Armor  45.0 mm

Turrent
Traverse Speed  14 degrees per second
Elevate Min  -3.0 degrees
Elevate Max  30.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity  800 m/s
Projectile Mass  24.9 kg (!)
Caliber  122

AP Ammo  18
HE Ammo  10


My stats on the Pz VI  Tiger II or "King Tiger"

Speed  38.0 km/h
Off Road  8.5 km/h
Rev Speed  19.0 km/h
Body Mass  69.7 tons
Front Armor  195.0 mm
Side Armor  84.0 mm
Rear Armor  92.0 mm
Front Turret = 215.0  mm
Side Turret = 86.0 mm
RearTurret = 86.0 mm
TopArmor = 40.0 mm

Turret
TraverseSpeed  18 degrees per second avg
Elevate Min  -7.4 degrees
Elevate Max  15.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity  1000 m/s
Projectile Mass  10.2kg
Caliber  88mm

AP Ammo  44
HE Ammo  40


Pz V "Panther" G
Speed  46.0 km/h
Off Road  12.0 km/h
Rev Speed  23.0 km/h
Body Mass  44.8 tons

Front Armor  122.0 mm
Side Armor  50.0 mm
Rear Armor  46.0 mm
Front Turret  150.0 mm
Side Turret  50.0 mm
Rear Turret  50.0 mm
Top Armor  16.0 mm

Turrent
Traverse Speed  20 degrees per second
ElevateMin  -8.0 degrees
ElevateMax  18.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity  925 m/s
Projectile Mass  6.8kg
Caliber  75mm

AP Ammo  49
HE Ammo  32


T-26 "Pershing"

Speed  32.2 km/h
OffRoad  8.0 km/h
Rev Speed  17.0 km/h
BodyMass  41.8 tons

Front Armor  137.0 mm
Side Armor  64.0 mm
Rear Armor  51.0 mm
Front Turret  140.0 mm
Side Turret  76.0 mm
Rear Turret  76.0 mm
Top Armor  24.0 mm

 Turret
Traverse Speed  27 degrees per second
ElevateMin  -10.0 degrees
ElevateMax  20.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity  853 m/s
Projectile Mass  10.9 kg
Caliber  90mm
AP Ammo  35
HE Ammo  35

British Centurion (Probably the best British tank made during WWII   )

Speed  37.0 km/h
Off Road  10.0 km/h
Rev Speed  18.0 km/h
Body Mass  42.0 tons

Front Armor  177.0 mm
Side Armor  74.0 mm
Rear Armor  70.0 mm
Front Turret  152.0 mm
Side Turret  74.0 mm
Rear Turret  70.0 mm
Top Armor  20.0 mm

 Turret
Traverse Speed = 24 degrees per second
Elevate Min  -12.5 degrees
Elevate Max  20.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity  883 m/s
Projectile Mass  7.7 kg
Caliber  77mm
AP Ammo  39
HE Ammo  19




[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 06-29-2000).]

[leonid]

RE: KV-1
Yeah, it was definitely an early war tank, seeing combat right from the beginning of Barbarossa.  It was finally phased out after the arrival of the T-34/85 and IS-I.

This tank was practically invincible from any German tank until the arrival of the Tiger.

While a good tank for an assault, the KV had no where near the speed of a T-34, and that is why I pick the T-34: speed!

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 06-29-2000).]

[Torquila]

Lets give the Russians and the yanks T-34 and Sherman, but give the germans the "elephant" with 380mm cannon  

[Kieren]

You can have the Elefant, along with its meager ammo load. You better be a good shot!

[Ghosth]

Hmmm sounds like I'd be happy with any of the above!

Shermans, for their speed & manuverablity would be just right for sneak attacks.

Also one of the British tanks with the 17pdr would be interesting.

We would then at least be able to set up a more historic N africa scenario.

Pyro?

[Ripsnort]

Granted, the Sherman would require  more  hits to kill the MarkIV, but imagine the MarkIV trying to hit the sherman as it's buzzing in circles?!?  It was alot faster, and could turn better...


How about the Churchill?

I like the T34 suggestion the best, considering we have 2 Russian planes that could make up a great Russian Front scenario...

Sherman could make use of the most variants, you could make the Sherman, then every month add a new variant with little coding effort (I believe)...

[Jigster]

Hmm I was checking on the Elephant, it always carried a low load out of 88mm kwk shells as far as I can tell. Given that was scary enough in 42-43, that particular gun has the best armor penetration at range of any tank gun during the war.

390mm? The biggest gun ever put on a tank I can recall are the 290mm Spigot mortars put on Churchill AVRE's, and a big springed spigot ain't got much range  

Rip, the Pz IV's 25mph is about average speed of all main battle tanks at the time. It's about 38 km/h, or equal to the Sherman "Jumbo". Most other Shermans avg about 44-48 km/h depending on variant.
The big difference is off road speeds, or how fast it can travel in low traction conditions such as mud, snow, climbing hills, crater holes, etc.

I would really rather not see a Churchill, it is so slow it would be of little use, and the standard 75mm gun is very weak. The only plus it has is armor, and the Sherman Jumbo, any of the late Panzer's and Russian tanks give better options. Some kind of Sherman variant would be best for then a British Sherman V and IIC Firefly would not be hard to model. Plus there are the artillary version Shermans such as the Calliope rocket carrier, and the M10 and M36 TD's all used the Sherman body.

Anybody who tells you the Pz IVH is a poor tank is full of it  

More stuff below, Pz IVH

I only have stuff for the early Churchills, up to the 57mm version. The highest speed I get out of them is 24 km/h or about 13 mph on a GOOD road.


- Jig

Pz IVH

Speed  38.0 km/h
Off Road  8 km/h
Rev Speed  19.0 km/h
Body Mass  25.0 tons

Front Armor  82.0mm
Side Armor  30.0mm
Rear Armor  21.0mm
Front Turret  80.0mm
Side Turret  33.0mm
Rear Turret  30.0mm
Top Armor  10.0mm

Turret
Traverse Speed  14 degees per second
Elevate Min  -8.0 degrees
Elevate Max  20.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity  790 m/s
Projectile Mass  6.8kg
Caliber  75mm
AP Ammo  52
HE Ammo  35




[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 06-29-2000).]

[Torquila]

     

Originally posted by Jigster:

390mm? The biggest gun ever put on a tank I can recall are the 290mm Spigot mortars put on Churchill AVRE's, and a big springed spigot ain't got much range        

Oops sorry wrong tank, it was a 380mm mortar cannon and it was monted on a Sturmtiger:

"It is reported that once a single shot fired by a sturmtiger from PzStuMrKp 1001 Completly destroyed three M4 shermans"
*drools*


http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sttig.htm" TARGET=_blank>www.achtungpanzer.com/sttig.htm




[This message has been edited by Torquila (edited 06-30-2000).]

[Torquila]

 "In December of 1942, Krupp created new design of 1500 ton tank - P 1500. Its frontal armor would be 250mm thick and it would be armed with 800mm mortar "Dora" type. P 1500 would be powered by two or four submarine diesel engines. In early 1943, Albert Speer cancelled both projects."

If only.... *sigh*
                                                                     

[SKurj]

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Granted, the Sherman would require  more  hits to kill the MarkIV, but imagine the MarkIV trying to hit the sherman as it's buzzing in circles?!?  It was alot faster, and could turn better...


Buzzing in circles? hehe if u r moving and trying to fire close to one of those "monsters" you would be dead real quick.  If i were in the MarkIV i'd just stop and pop ya

SKurj

[Rendar]

"One day a Tiger Royal tank got within 150 yards of my tank and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him from ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got five or six hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like Tiger, we would all be home today." - Report by tank commander Sergeant Clyde D. Brunson from 2nd Armored Division, 1945.



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Rendar