Fighting for the wrong side.

[RufusLeaking]

How does one acknowledge the courage and sacrifice of airmen who fought for the wrong side? 

This is an idea that has recurred to me time and again has recently been rekindled with the discussion of the Brewster in the Finnish Air Force and the inclusion of the blue swastika (FAF) and not the Nazi black swastika in AH2.

It is the correct consensus that the Axis were the bad guys in World War II.  I will not laundry list the flaws in the Axis ideologies or the atrocities committed.  There are many. The evil of the leadership and their actions is undeniable.  With the exception of Stalin’s Soviet state, the Allies were boy scouts.

Yet, the men who sacrificed for these evil idiots were still men.  They had lives, families, camaraderie, traditions, etc.  They fought against overwhelming odds.  Not always honorably, but the same can be said of the victors.  They had a sense of duty.  And many died horribly as did soldiers on all sides.   It was their misfortune to be born in the wrong nation at the wrong time.  That my grandparents immigrated to the US meant that my father was an enlisted man on the USS Hornet (CV-12) off Okinawa and his brother was wounded while serving in the 100th Infantry Division in France and Germany.

I really have no answer. 

My humanity feels for their suffering.  My intellect wonders how they could have been so gullible as to believe in such nonsense as the “master race.”  My patriotism wonders what they were thinking taking on the United States.  It is my own experience in the USAF that knows, for the most part, that they were men like me.  I can empathize with their personal human sacrifices. 

I can acknowledge their bravery, but I cannot endorse their objectives.  How do we remember their sacrifice?

[PiratPX]

If you read memoirs of WW2 German pilots, especially fighters, you may notice that almost none of them joined the Luftwaffe to serve nazi regime. They joined for the same reasons as pilots in most western countries: it gave them opportunity to fly , secondly it gave them profession some of them thought would have a future, and sometimes it could raise one's social status. That's it. They had misfortune to be trained in time to take part in the big mess called WW2. And then again Luftwaffe was the most "independent thinking" branch of German military -  it had fewest political fanatics compared to other branches, some of its members openly disregarding nazi authorities. They fought driven by sense of duty, maybe because of pride of being world's best trained air warriors, but I don't think many of them believed all the master race crap.
Sry for my English

[Denholm]

Wow, great question Rufus.

For me it's also sometimes difficult to look upon German soldiers of WWII as humans or anything but Nazis. Rather ironic considering I'm German. However, I am easily reminded that not all German military men of WWII were Nazis when I recall my Grandfather's story. He was enlisted into the military without a say about it. While in transit to his training base he jumped off a moving train successfully evading his future military, "career."

When thinking about the war I also remember that the true humanity of each side is never revealed until the dust settles. One image has always come to mind when I think about the aftermath. The image of a German soldier returning home, or what was once home.

[Motherland]

This is an idea that has recurred to me time and again has recently been rekindled with the discussion of the Brewster in the Finnish Air Force and the inclusion of the blue swastika (FAF) and not the Nazi black swastika in AH2.

It should be noted that one of the reasons that the Nazi Swastika is not used in Aces High, if not the primary or only reason, is because in Germany the symbol is only allowed to be used under certain circumstances, and their government has censored video games before...

It is the correct consensus that the Axis were the bad guys in World War II.  I will not laundry list the flaws in the Axis ideologies or the atrocities committed.  There are many. The evil of the leadership and their actions is undeniable.  With the exception of Stalin’s Soviet state, the Allies were boy scouts.

Although it would be stupid to try to say in any way that actions of the Western Allies ever matched what was committed by some of the Axis powers, I think it is also not fair to say that their hands were clean at the end of the war, either. Millions of civilians were killed in the Allied firebombing campaigns.

My intellect wonders how they could have been so gullible as to believe in such nonsense as the “master race.”  My patriotism wonders what they were thinking taking on the United States. 

The first is a pretty one to answer if you consider the second...
Also, remember at this point in time that the United States was still segregated and we put Japanese in camps. It's not like racism was absent from the rest of the world.

[Rino]

     Denholm,
     How many German soldiers from WW2 have you mett?

     Hans Gerdes is my brother's father-in-law.  He was a journeyman carpenter
about 17-8 in 1943 when Herr Adolf said welcome to the Luftwaffe.  He said you
didn't refuse the draft or you got sent to a camp.  He was placed in a 20mm flak
crew and sent to a field about 30k east of Cherbourg.  His war lasted about 2
months when his position was strafed by a P-38 on D-Day and he was badly wounded.

     He still carries some of the 27 pieces of schrapnel and has a tough time going
through metal detectors.  He was sent home to heal up, but was transfered to a
military hospital near Hamburg by war's end.  The patients at the hospital were
supposed to be released to go home after the surrender.  Instead the Americans
turned the patients over to the Russians.

     Hans spent 5 years in Siberia building bridges for the Siberian highway and
railroad before being repatriated in 1950.  Of the 2400+ prisoners he was with
in 1945, less than 200 remained alive by 1950.

     Hans is a great guy, wasn't a Nazi and paid a heavy price for being born in
the wrong country.  Sometimes the world isn't black and white.

[Die Hard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJxmGxY37jI

[bozon]

It is quite simple. Those people fought for their country and for their countrymen, regardless of their attitude toward the nazi regime.

I can tell you from personal experience that once your nearest and dearest are under threat, you go to fight even if this is a war you do not believe in. You go cursing and grinding your teeth, but you still go - out of your own free will. Love and care for your family, friends and comrades beats moral and ideology.

[Rich46yo]

Yeah right. After the war was lost finding a Nazi supporter was like searching for hens teeth.

And after the war 70 million Germans, or what was left after we bombed the snot out of them, all threw up their hands over the Jews and undesirables, "we didn't know". As if you could uproot millions upon millions of people and nobody knew what happened to them.

The thing is the Final solution didn't happen in a vacuum. It was a series of Pogroms where Himmler et al systematically either conditioned the German public, and most of all the Military, or brought them into the conspiracy that they "Germans" "Nordics" were a "master race" and lesser races would either be enslaved or annihilated. The German army was knee deep in guilt in their support of the the Eisengruppen squads as they fanned out in the wake of Barbarossa. In 1942, at Wannsee, the SS made formal the complicity of the entire German Bureaucracy. 9 million dont disappear without a whole lot of file clerks using ink by the gallons.

And a lot of the Finns bought the message. The Norwegians too. The Baltics and the French Police, and Vichy Govt., were shameful in their assistance in the Final Solution. The fact is a lot of Europe bought the message for whatever reasons. Boy if you ever want to study true evil then study the eastern front where 40 million people ended up dieing in the Nazi pursuit of "living space" for the German people and the destruction of lesser races.

Personally? I think almost the entire German nation bought the message Hitler gave them. At least in the early years. While the army and Industrialists sought to use him for their on benefit. Dont forget the army didn't act on killing him until "after" D-day. Until D-day there was still a chance to end the war on favorable terms.

So sorry, I dont give them a pass as others might.

[Angus]

Where do you then define those who sacrificed their lives fighting AGAINST the evil of their own country?
Canaris...the head of the German secret service, turned sides and co-opped with the British. The Nazis hung him.

Or this group of young people who went head to head against Nazi propoganda, with their printing. Result: Guilliotine.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

It's so easy to judge from a continent and 70 years away. Things are never black and white and the reality was that either you went with the flow or your own life was instantly destroyed either by losing your position in society or ending up to the same camps.

Many people helped the ghetto people as much as their own little supplies enabled it and many people got trouble because of it.

Would you help a poor starving accused terrorist that was on a hideout next to your home? Of course not - even if you _knew_ they were wrongfully accused for their position, helping them would be suicide for you. The jews of the time are the terrorist of today. Group of ehnicity labeled as enemy of the nation. The same people who stomp the bible about their moral high ground quietly accept that a certain group of people have no human rights and can be limitlessly detained by the government just on the premise of accusation.

Fuel for thought..

And /edit: I don't have a problem with chasing the buggers by any means - it sucks for the wrongfully accused though.

[Fishu]

This is an idea that has recurred to me time and again has recently been rekindled with the discussion of the Brewster in the Finnish Air Force and the inclusion of the blue swastika (FAF) and not the Nazi black swastika in AH2.

It is the correct consensus that the Axis were the bad guys in World War II.  I will not laundry list the flaws in the Axis ideologies or the atrocities committed.  There are many. The evil of the leadership and their actions is undeniable.  With the exception of Stalin’s Soviet state, the Allies were boy scouts.

Yet, the men who sacrificed for these evil idiots were still men.

Mind you that finns weren't exactly evil even if they were part of the axis and I would venture to say that the allies committed more evil deeds.

I have learned a long ago to respect most soldiers regardless of their side. Those who I don't respect are those who have committed evil deeds by their own sadistic, brutal or otherwise twisted will.

[jdbecks]

neither side of two armies/ countries fighting each other is evil, only depending on what side you were on. Ie we thought the Axis were the evil bad guys and they thought the Allies were the evil bad guys. During times of war both sides can and commit inhumane acts to each other. regardless of who served for who..I have alot of respect for anyone who had done their part in the war.

[CAP1]

the very simple fact, is that the soldiers in the field, and the airmen, were just the same as our young men. they were fighting for their country. they were simply fated with being born on the wrong side.

[Masherbrum]

It should be noted that one of the reasons that the Nazi Swastika is not used in Aces High, if not the primary or only reason, is because in Germany the symbol is only allowed to be used under certain circumstances, and their government has censored video games before...

Although it would be stupid to try to say in any way that actions of the Western Allies ever matched what was committed by some of the Axis powers, I think it is also not fair to say that their hands were clean at the end of the war, either. Millions of civilians were killed in the Allied firebombing campaigns.
The first is a pretty one to answer if you consider the second...

Also, remember at this point in time that the United States was still segregated and we put Japanese in camps. It's not like racism was absent from the rest of the world.

I agree with this absolutely intelligent answer.   This is about the extent of my feelings.

[Denholm]

    Denholm,
     How many German soldiers from WW2 have you mett?

I'm pretty sure I met a few. However, I was too young to know or care about what the war meant. It's not my story that I told, just that of my Grandfather's.

...Personally? I think almost the entire German nation bought the message Hitler gave them. At least in the early years. While the army and Industrialists sought to use him for their on benefit. Dont forget the army didn't act on killing him until "after" D-day. Until D-day there was still a chance to end the war on favorable terms...

My great-Grandmother assisted Jewish residents during the war regardless of speeches that they were dirt. Yes, my great-Grandmother was German.