Why the "uberplanes"?

[Hristo]

Even if I never expected it, I agree with Snake Eyes here. And even though I recognize his intention to smuggle Bearcat in   Sure, have it, but only after Ta 152, He 162 and Me 262 get in (by the time when it entered service). Bring Bearcat at the time of the Go 229  

Now seriously, the planes we have here would be uberplanes against 1941-42 planes. But between themselves they are fairly close. 1945 planes would be slightly uber to the ones now, but again, not between themselves.

So, let HTC finish what it has started. Continue to follow the plane development until mid 1945, or even later. Finish the timeline with late war what-if planes and what-if scenarios, and then develop the planeset from early war. Spain would be nice indeed.

Ta 152, for example, has such an incredible charisma among Luftwaffe types. Not to disregard it from marketing aspects. I guess we all agree that AH would not be so popular if it started with 1940 period, with no F4U or P 51. Ta 152 would attract new players - even the loud ones who shout 'dweeb mobile' would come to try it out.

For once, do not listen to elitism crowd, calling everything produced after 1943 a dweeb plane.

[SnakeEyes]

Yee-haw... Hristo, you rock.  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[JENG]

As I stated before I'll try and fly anything from the Fairland Swordfish to the Gotha 229.

However...  I do believe that you are depriving the 'early bird' types of their passion. Without the RPS, which most don't want (hey hangtime.. ..). So however wants to fly some early planes is relegated to the Scenario arena.

About the difference between planes... I do believe like snakeEyes says that the relative difference between the Ta152 and the P-47M for example is very little indeed. However these latewar birds are all made with speed in mind (ea BnZ) and that's not the case with the early ones. You see a real change in tactics in the war. Most planes used in 1939-40 were manufactured with turnability in mind... (except maybe the german planes what makes sense since they were ahead in the use of tactics). The late planes were manufactured with speed in mind (not that they will be used that way in the arena) and are kings at the E-game.

As I said before I want to be able to fly both kind of planes (early and late) but both in a competitive enviroment.

BEE
Nemo impune lacessit
   

[SnakeEyes]

Jeng:

Even now, you cannot model the early war aircraft without having some type of RPS... or do you think anyone is reasonably going to fly a Spitfire Ia or a 109E against a FW190 or P51?

Once an RPS or Era-based Planeset is added, there is room for any and all aircraft.  But don't deceive yourself... any early war aircraft modeled today without an RPS would already be relegated to "scenario-only" duty (and that's without adding the aircraft I'm talking about -- such as Tempests, F8Fs, and Ta152s).

Aircraft in 1939 were generally built to turn well... but, even then, you'll find that the _successful_ users of those aircraft quickly turned to tactics that become the basis for E-fighting (or simple B&Z in other cases).  A good example of this is the Flying Tigers against the Japanese.  And I suspect that the Finns didn't engage the Soviets in extended Turn & Burn duels with their F2As.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[JENG]

Glad you agree with what I'm saying...

Indeed I would like to see every plane (early and late). And of course they should keep adding late war planes now... (work their way up to 1945) and then start on the early planes.

I'm not seeying that tho (C202, Spit Vb)... but that could be cause they are only different types of planes already in the game.

My biggest fear is what you are saying and I've been ranting about that for 3 months now. I'm almost certain that HT said (somewhere on this BB)that there will not be a RPS. The reason being that people pay 30$ per month and if they want to fly their favorite plane (for example hangtime and his pony) the whole month they should have the chance to do that instead of waiting for 2 weeks before it becomes available.

In this case (without RPS) there is no need for early planes and I would hate that. Even now the 190a8 is becoming a bit obsolete... (I know I fly it alot)what would that be with a hurricane or a F2a?

 You are absolutely right about the shift in tactics during WWII. In the beginning the finnish and german airforces where ahead (flying finger4 formations, using hit and run tactics, BnZ). The English, French, etc had to catch up (they still used vic formations). But consider this... even a 109E4 (basicly an E-fighter) is a good turner compared to the latewarplanes.

What I would like to see is a resemblance of this 'shift in tactics' in the game. So in the beginning of RPS more will E-fight and TnB (planes better for this)... later on people will change more to BnZ cause the planes are better suited for this. (OK,OK, I'll fly the 109E4 also in BnZ-mode  ...)

BEE
 

[JENG]

double post :S

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 02-21-2000).]

[Nashwan]

Please don't flame me as it's my first post and I'm just looking trying to find an online sim I can join.
As I understand it the only RAF aircraft in Aces High is the SpitIX. Why are other British aircraft like the SpitXIV and Tempest from early 44 only considered for inclusion along with late/post war planes like the TA152 and P51H?

[juzz]

Because they are just too damn good!  

Or, they are better than the Mustang, and anything better than the Mustang is automatically labelled as an "uberplane".  

 

Aircraft in 1939 were generally built to turn well... but, even then, you'll find that the _successful_ users of those aircraft quickly turned to tactics that become the basis for E-fighting (or simple B&Z in other cases). A good example of this is the Flying Tigers against the Japanese. And I suspect that the Finns didn't engage the Soviets in extended Turn & Burn duels with their F2As.

That doesn't make sense. Aircraft built in 1939 were not generally designed to turn well. In fact only the Japanese really demanded manoeverability at the expense of all else.

Look at the Bf109. It was designed for speed: with short, thin wings that gave it a high wingloading for a 1935 fighter.

MiG-1?
P-38?

The reason the AVG were using "Hit and Run" tactics because they simply could not dogfight the more manoeverable Japanese fighters with their P-40's. They had no other option if they wanted to shoot down Japanese aircraft and survive.

Half a decade earlier the Germans had already learnt the same lesson flying Bf109's against the more manoeverable I-16's etc. in Spain, and again in Poland and France against similarly agile types of enemy aircraft.

It was really the planes themselves that forced the changes in tactics, not any great foresight on the part of military tacticians.

[leonid]

Pre-, early, mid, late, and Post-.  Put them all in AH.  That would be my preference.  As for the earlier aircraft suffering from lack of use in an arena where all era of props are lumped into one - I seriously doubt that HTC would let this happen.  It would be a waste of resources.  Thus, you can be fairly certain that some form of RPS will be in effect as the plane set fills in.  Enough aircraft abounded in all these eras to allow for a well rounded, chronologically sound plane set.  As long as the plane sets are complete with enough fighter and bomber types for each era, an RPS system could be quite exciting.

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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[Vermillion]

Nashwan currently there is no Ta-152H or P-51H in the game, and I don't expect to see them anytime soon.  There is the Fw190A8 (1944) and the P-51D (1944).

The Spitfire Mk IX in the game is a 1944 model F.

It has just been announced officially, that the very next new plane after this coming version will be the Typhoon Ib.

Realistically, I would also expect to see the Spit XIV and the Tempest, at least someday.

So I don't think the British Pilots are getting the short end of the stick.

Hell if you want to see it bad, just look at the Russian (VVS) aircraft in the game. Their most advanced model is the La-5, which is a midwar 1943 aircraft. They deserve a La-7, or a Yak-3, or a Yak-9U.

At least the Spit IX is competitive in the arena.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Nashwan]

The Typhoon sounds good, but again it is a 1942 aircraft. So is the SpitIX, which may have remained in production until 44 or even 45, but was  virtually unchanged from the 42 model. It is just that the P51D and the 109G10 (I think) both entered service in 44, a good 2 years later than the newest RAF aircraft.
As to the Spit14 being compared to The p51h and TA152, I know they are not in yet, but it concerns me that when we finally get the Spit14 it will be in the company of planes that are 18months newer again.


[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 02-22-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Nashwan, I wouldn't be too disappointed in the Tiffy until you try it.

Right now the plane that everyone complains about as being too "deadly" and "shouldnt' be in the game" is the Corsair F4U-1C.

Which is basically a 1943 design (engine, speed, performance), which has had x4 20mm cannons slapped on instead of the machine guns.

In some cases the year of introduction is deceiving.

Anyways, its all up too you and what you like that will make you decided whether to speed the money or not.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Toad]

Didn't one of the other sims have separate early and late war arenas for a while?

As I recall, the early was usually lightly populated with most guys in the late.

This is what led to the RPS unless I'm having one of my "oldtimer's disease" attacks.

[Nashwan]

It won't put me off joining, I am just waiting untill I get my ADSL link in a month or so then I'm almost certainly going to sign up with Aces High. I like the Tiffie but if modelled accuratley the high alt performance will be disappointing. Don't forget that the Typhoon was neaarly cancelled until it's value as a ground attack aircraft became clear.

[jimmiet]

Well guys i know 1 plane i wouldn't mind seeing in ah and thats a b-29 superfortress but i also want to see planes that have never been modeled in a sim before thats y i like ah the planes ar modeled really well the b-17 could use a little work though
but i cant wait for the rest of them