From AH LW type

[jedi]

ROFL, ya can't swing a dead (Hell)cat around here without hittin' somebody's "hidden" agenda  

The Spitfire 14 wasn't "significant" enough to be in the game, but the FW-190D and Me-262 and Ta-152 and even the He-162 ARE worthy of inclusion?

The Spitfire 14 in Warbirds (and also the Dora, let's not forget) purposely had their "nuts cut" for playability because they were sooooo good and so unbalancing otherwise, but the EXACT SAME guys who built those planes in Warbirds (and allegedly "porked" them) are going to make them "historically accurate" here?  Thereby introducing this HUGE imbalance into the game because they're too good???  Hard to keep a straight face typing that one, but surely SOMEONE besides me can see through the BS being flung here?

Same song, different pub, I guess.  MY airplane MUST be included, and in that other sim, it was porked for playability to insure a US bias, and if they model it "realistically," it'll clean the floor with all those sorry Mustangs and Corsairs, unless they start modeling mechanical (un)reliability so the Japanese planes will suck and the wundermaschine of the LW will turn into so much junk blah blah blah!

How ANY of you can argue against the inclusion of ANY legitimate combat plane from WW2 is beyond me.  You either trust HTC to look out for the "balance" issues, or you don't.  If you DO trust em, then take the planes you're given and fly em.  If you DON'T trust em, then why are you even here?

If you guys were REALLY interested in expanding your WW2 combat horizons, you'd be asking for early-war planes, particularly the axis types which dominated the early war period, and an RPS that shows those planes off.  But that isn't what you're really interested in, is it?  You just wanna prove that that dweeb who flies US/LW iron actually sucks but only gets his kills because the Mustang/190A5 is so totally overmodeled.  

As long as you want to cling to the "uberplane-of-the-week" plan, you can hardly call foul if the other guy gets "his" uberplane before you get "yours."  If you're gonna have an F4U-1C, you can't say no to the Dora (or even the Ta-152 IMO).  If you have Dora, you can't say no to Spit XIV.  Or Yak-3.  Or F4U-4.  Etc, etc, etc.

The only thing I saw that made sense is that you should release the things in pairs, i.e. Spit 14 and Dora released together, so that you don't give one side or the other the "ultimate weapon" unchecked.

OK, resume pissing on each other now...

--jedi


 

[Toad]

Well Said, Jedi.

No matter what though, there will ALWAYS be the LW v Allied mudslinging.

Remember those license plates that say "Hell, NO, I ain't fergettin!" ?  

Me? Every plane, any plane! I don't care because they all have different strengths and weaknesses. I do think an RPS setup would be nice, once we get more planes.

[Hristo]

For the record, I am all for bringing Spit XIV and Dora to AH, modeled as close to as they were.

As for discussing circumstances, I just made a joke as reply to some silly poor quality and no fuel arguments.

Face it, Meteor is not even close to the significance of the 262. In any aspect, from historical accounts to the flight characteristics or even esthetics. Forget it  

If you are not afraid of 262, how come you ask for numerical superiority and vulch conditions ?

Perk 162, perk 335, perk 152, but perk the Meteor too. 262 ? Nope, it is not the same category, that one actually saw heavy action.

What plane were Galland and Steinhoff flying when they were wounded ?

[Hristo]

Jedi, all I ask for is dive speed  

Is that so much ?

How would US types feel if they were given to fly P 39 and P 40 in AH, instead of F4U-1C and P 51D ?

That's how LW types feel in Bf 109F-4 instead of Fw 190D-9.

Same with Spit types, flying Mark V instead of Mark XIV.



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-11-2000).]

[Karnak]

LWs, lay off the combat requirement for late-late-war aircraft.  Just because Germany was getting its bellybutton kicked and threw any-thing/idea they had at the Allies (some good, some bad) doesn't mean that HTC should model Germany's end-of-war experimental stuff.  If you guys think that the US, UK and USSR didn't have wierd, high potential stuff in proto-type, you're clueless.  The Allies happened to be in a position of great superiority over Germany.  They didn't have to risk their pilots lives by throwing them into combat in untested equipment.  We may, in retrospect, say that the Brits and Yanks were silly to worry about whether jets were ready or not, but that would be overlooking some of the problems (for example, no WWII jet will accerate with a WWII piston engined fighter) that early jets had.  If England or America were in Germany's place in 1944, you can bet your shorts they would have deployed Meteors and P-80s.

My take is this:

If it entered active service in the years 1939 to 1944, let it in as a standard, fly it anytime you like aircraft.  This is supposed to be a sim, so let people have the equipment and then figure out what to do with it (it doesn't matter to me that the Fw190D-9 will outrun my Spitfire MkXIV at 2,000 feet).
If it entered active service in 1945 or was in proto-type when the war ended, make it a perk plane.

Edit:  Hristo, this was not posted in response to your 2 posts immediately above it.  You posted those while I wrote this one.    

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 07-11-2000).]

[Hristo]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
My take is this:

If it entered active service in the years 1939 to 1944, let it in as a standard, fly it anytime you like aircraft.  This is supposed to be a sim, so let people have the equipment and then figure out what to do with it (it doesn't matter to me that the Fw190D-9 will outrun my Spitfire MkXIV at 2,000 feet).
If it entered active service in 1945 or was in proto-type when the war ended, make it a perk plane.

So, you are for unlimited 262s too ?  

WTG, I agree with you getting your Spit XIV.

As for outrunning you on the deck, it is all that matters to me. Diving and deck chasing to stay alive. Turning will only get you killed  

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Hristo:
... Diving and deck chasing to stay alive. Turning will only get you killed  

Hristo, this sounds like you are a <gasp> OPPORTUNIST!

 

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Bring in the Dora, so people will stop bothering me and my overmodelled P47D hehehe.

A5 was a terror when he came in AH. Most people claimed 'I love my A5!'... and now what? it's an average plane not good at anything... muahahaha.

Oh and the G10 hehehe I may slightly outdive it but he can catch up with me while on deck, and he climbs way better than my P47.

I think LW have 2 killers there, but bring it on over models, I take plane set and opponents 'as it'. I may run more often, or at least try to hehehe.

------------------
Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
     


[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 07-11-2000).]

[Karnak]

Yes, Hristo.  I did mean the 262 as well.

Me262, yes.  Tempest, yes.  Spitfire MkXIV, yes.  Meteor, Yes. Fw190D-9, yes.  Me163, yes.  F6F, Yes.  Ki84, Yes.  Yak 3, yes.

Ta152, perk, yes.  Spitfire MkF.21, perk, yes.  Fury, perk, yes.  P-80, perk, yes.  J7W1, perk, yes.  A7M2, perk, yes.  F7F, perk, yes.

The diference is that you can outrun me with your 262, 109G-10 or 190D-9, but I would have a Spit that could outrun some things as opposed to just the A6M5b and C.202.

Sisu
-Karnak

[jmccaul]

I will try to outline my argument clearly.

   The 262 was rushed into service perhaps before it was ready because the allies had almost taotal air superiority as a result when it did enter service it wasn't short of an enemy or 2 too shot down.
   The meteor on the otherhand was introduced at about the same time. But due to cicumstances didn't see hardly any action (despite a squadron based on the continent) passed some V1's.

Now this argument came from hristo suggesting the meteor should perked but the 262 see plenty of action. My objection to this is the 262 saw plenty of combat due to circumstance but the LW want the plane but don't want the cicumstance.

i.e. the plane should be unperked but they also want a parity with the enemy but if these were the cicumstances for the LW i would bet the 262 would not have seen any more combat than the meteor.  

There also would be a balance issue. If you you include a 262 unperked for historic reasons it would have a completley un-historic effect on the arena with the 262 completley dominating where as in real life it maintained a no better record than the 190/109.

Some may smack of hypocrisy considering my asking for a spit 14 which some say would un-historically dominate the arena, but i diagree it wouldn't in an arena of it's contemperies (la-7, ki-84, dora, yak 3, f4u -4, p51-D, tempest V).
The 262 would have that unbalancing effect (even with a meteor on equal status).

It's up to HTC to deal with balance issues and hopefully they will do that with out castrating planes.

I wish them luck        

[SnakeEyes]

 

...the LW want the plane but don't want the cicumstance.

One of the most astute observations I've seen made in along time.  All of this Allied versus Luftwaffe garbage ignores that very issue as each side tries to advance the argument that "my plane" should get modeled and have unlimited availability while others (and particularly those of the other side) should be restricted/perked/etc.

If we're going to use strictly historical criteria for which planes get added, which planes are perked, and which planes have limited availability, then the *only* way to do so and be consistent in our application of these principles is to also apply the same circumstances from which these planes came to see combat.

And, while that might be interesting or challenging to take that approach for a short while, it certainly doesn't make for fun gameplay in the longer term.  What's the use in including the Me262 if availability is so strict that only one or two are in the air at any one time?  Or if the enemy has an in-air spawn point over your Me262 field to recreate the nearly-constant Allied CAP that existed near these fields?

No... that's obviously not an approach that benefits anyone.  Rather, the approach should be to model aircraft by a more flexible criteria (one which allows the Ta152 as well as the F8F, and one that perhaps even allows for a modified N1K2 using the American testdata).

Personally, the defining criteria that is going to be the most useful is determining how to separate perk planes from standard aircraft.  My thought is to take the aircraft which set a relatively level bar in late 1944 in terms of aircraft performance and work from there.

On December 31, 1944 I would classify the following aircraft as both leaders for their respective nations, and relatively equal in terms of performance (I might use the word "peers").  These aircraft would set the dividing line between perk and standard aircraft:

Spit XIV
P-51D
P-47H
P-38L
FW-190D
109G10/K
Ki84
N1K2 (Japanese data)

Aircraft whose performance would generally be thought to exceed the performance of these aircraft would become perk aircraft.  That would include aircraft like the Ta-152, F8F, P-51H, P-47M, Me262, N1K2 with American data, etc.

The result is that you produce a situation of relative play balance (which is *good* for a main arena oriented game), and one where the dividing line between standard and perk is relatively clear.  Obviously, the situation would be far different for scenarios, historical arenas, and so forth, but that's not what's being discussed here.

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 07-11-2000).]

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
 One of the most astute observations I've seen made in along time.  All of this Allied versus Luftwaffe garbage ignores that very issue as each side tries to advance the argument that "my plane" should get modeled and have unlimited availability while others (and particularly those of the other side) should be restricted/perked/etc.

If we're going to use strictly historical criteria for which planes get added, which planes are perked, and which planes have limited availability, then the *only* way to do so and be consistent in our application of these principles is to also apply the same circumstances from which these planes came to see combat.

And, while that might be interesting or challenging to take that approach for a short while, it certainly doesn't make for fun gameplay in the longer term.  What's the use in including the Me262 if availability is so strict that only one or two are in the air at any one time?  Or if the enemy has an in-air spawn point over your Me262 field to recreate the nearly-constant Allied CAP that existed near these fields?

No... that's obviously not an approach that benefits anyone.  Rather, the approach should be to model aircraft by a more flexible criteria (one which allows the Ta152 as well as the F8F, and one that perhaps even allows for a modified N1K2 using the American testdata).

Personally, the defining criteria that is going to be the most useful is determining how to separate perk planes from standard aircraft.  My thought is to take the aircraft which set a relatively level bar in late 1944 in terms of aircraft performance and work from there.

On December 31, 1944 I would classify the following aircraft as both leaders for their respective nations, and relatively equal in terms of performance (I might use the word "peers").  These aircraft would set the dividing line between perk and standard aircraft:

Spit XIV
P-51D
P-47H
P-38L
FW-190D
109G10/K
Ki84
N1K2 (Japanese data)

Aircraft whose performance would generally be thought to exceed the performance of these aircraft would become perk aircraft.  That would include aircraft like the Ta-152, F8F, P-51H, P-47M, Me262, N1K2 with American data, etc.

The result is that you produce a situation of relative play balance (which is *good* for a main arena oriented game), and one where the dividing line between standard and perk is relatively clear.  Obviously, the situation would be far different for scenarios, historical arenas, and so forth, but that's not what's being discussed here.

I get it! So your saying that the 262 should fill the historical roll, however so ironic, of a dive bomber? Makes sense to me. No ditching the eggs till bombing an enemy target, and while carrying those bombs the 262 is nothing more that a poor climbing, poor accelerating, poor turning jabo with little more speed then a clean prop fighter.

After all that is why it took so long before it was finally in use. Why not make it part of the circumstances?

Well of course that would never work but it sure would be funny running down Jabbo 262's.

 

- Jig

[SnakeEyes]

No Jig... what we're saying is that there's no use in inserting an aircraft which, as we all know, outclasses its opponents in an revolutionary sense, rather than an evolutionary sense.

Putting in aircraft like the Me262, P-47M, Ta-152H, P-51H, Tempest V, and so forth, without any perk or check/balance system, is silly and should be patently obvious to anyone.

Putting in a well-matched set of aircraft to mark the high-water mark of the "standard" planeset is an eminently reasonable idea IMO.

I appreciate the shot-across-the-bow at the LW pilots, but I actually prefer to craft an honest, serious reply on this point (for once <G> ).

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Nashwan]

 

Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
No Jig... what we're saying is that there's no use in inserting an aircraft which, as we all know, outclasses its opponents in an revolutionary sense, rather than an evolutionary sense.

Putting in aircraft like the Me262, P-47M, Ta-152H, P-51H, Tempest V, and so forth, without any perk or check/balance system, is silly and should be patently obvious to anyone.

Tempest V? It's at least 40mph slower than any of the planes you compare it with, and came out before any of them.
The Tempest would probably be the most balanced RAF plane if it was introduced.

[SnakeEyes]

Not at 5K it ain't... I believe it can run down the Dora on the deck.    

In any event, I just tossed out some potential plane types, and obviously, people are free to object.

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=