Author Topic: How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?  (Read 3622 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2001, 12:22:00 PM »
Yes, they found the design flaw, retro-fitted current 737's and production changes in current 737's.  Took the company along time to admit it though...


And actually it was a combination of bad design AND pilot error, the pilots over compensated for what was a routine rudder deflection case...though I'm no expert on the  emergency procedures.  Bottom line is, the pilots should have not had to compensate for it, bad design.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2001, 12:25:00 PM »
I used to be a design engineer for aircraft actuation systems, and 737's scared the crap out of me for a while after I read a bunch of technical reports on the rudder system.  Uncommanded split-S is NOT GOOD.  Supposedly it's fixed.  I think time will tell.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2001, 12:28:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup:
I used to be a design engineer for aircraft actuation systems, and 737's scared the crap out of me for a while after I read a bunch of technical reports on the rudder system.  Uncommanded split-S is NOT GOOD.  Supposedly it's fixed.  I think time will tell.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]


Even with those scary design flaws, the 737 has the safest record of any commercial aircraft known to man.  Just think, one takes off every 5 seconds somewhere around the world.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2001, 12:30:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hblair:
lol, you musta added that in the edit rip, thinking the same thing.

Yes, I was, LOL!

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2001, 12:36:00 PM »
I'm aware of that fact Rip, it's a helluva safe plane overall.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2001, 12:42:00 PM »
Flew the -800 with the "new, improved rudder actuator". Yeah, it's better but from my admittedly limited technical expertise view, they may not have totally eliminated the problem. I sure HOPE they did though.

As far as "pilot error" being involved I'd like to see your company docs on the accidents. I don't call uncommanded full rudder deflection a "routine rudder deflection case". I'm not sure you CAN over-react to uncommanded full rudder deflection. From what I heard and read in the Union message traffic, nobody survived the computer simulation of the accident in the simulator.

Still, I'd like to see what Boeing says.   :)

As far as rudder actuators... you guys just aren't real good at them, sorry to say. The 707 and the -135 series all had hardover problems resulting in the installation of a rudder pressure shutoff switch on the center control stand to instantly depressurize the rudder actuator. Quite a few guys died until they resolved that one.

Same switch on the 727's, nuff said. <EDIT>: And they split the rudder in half so there were two separate systems, upper and lower rudder, each with its own control surface, acutator, and different hydraulic system. Smart; "belts and suspenders". Probably would have saved those 737's had it been used on them.)

737's? nuff said.

767-200 wags it's tail like a dog in cruise, even with the new yaw dampeners. The F/A's hate it, although it is much improved over the initial intro set-up.

757 and 767-300's are pretty good in cruise wrt "tail wagging" for some reason. I sorta think the 767-200 was just too short, too "close-coupled".

Still all in all, Boeing is "belts and suspenders" engineering. Almost always a "back-up to the back-up method" of getting things done. I love 'em.

Compared to Airbus? Not even. Do a search on how many Airbuses have been lost after capturing the glide slope on A/P. I'll take my chances on a Boeing rudder any day.

Beyond that, the "flight law" programming in the Airbus computers scares me. With Boeing and the old McDonnell stuff, the pilot is always the ultimate authority. Not so with a 'Bus.

For example, if you think you need to pull more than the design load limit (g) to save your ass, the Boeing flight control computers would let you. An Airbus computer thinks it is ultimately smarter than the pilot and will limit you to design G.

Simple difference in design philosophy that I can't agree with. Nah, no thanks.

Lastly, although I love Boeings, the best heavy transport I ever flew was the L-1011. Lord, what a plane! What a great design! What a well thought out cockpit and control set-up. No one else has come close on such smooth Cat III A/P capability to this day, and it's an old design. Sadly, the aircraft design was ahead of the technology available and it was a bit problematical on maintenance.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2001, 01:05:00 PM »
Toad, here are the recommendations that both Boeing and the NTSB implemented:

Improved pilot training into recovering from airplane "upsets," regardless of their cause;
                     An improved control valve in the 737 rudder system;
                     An improved yaw damper in the 737 rudder system;
                     The addition of a hydraulic pressure limiter to the 737 rudder system.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2001, 01:19:00 PM »
Rip,

I've already gone through the stipulated "upset training" two times now in the simulator. It is not 737 specific and all pilots, regardless of aircraft, get the training.

It didn't feature any special "how to react to uncommanded rudder movement" training. It was more in line with what, in my old USAF days, we simply called "unusual attitude recovery".

Not dinging you, just giving you my perspective.

I'd still love to see any Boeing documents that try to make the case that it was "pilot error".

Here's one I really like...

"There is no problem so complex that it cannot simply be blamed on the pilot.

— Dr Earl Weiner"

  :D

<EDIT>: Weiner is one totally sharp guy, btw. He's put out some really insightful stuff on aviation safety.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline hblair

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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2001, 01:46:00 PM »
Toad, we all know you're a waiter at the airport Denney's. We accept you for who you are, quit trying to be a bigshot.

  ;)

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2001, 01:46:00 PM »
Sensitive subject Toad, pilot and engineer ego's don't mix, Boeing wanted enhanced training, NTSB wanted fixes in the rudder, they met on common ground.   :)

Editted to "Pilot and engineer ego's from "Pilot ego's and engineers..."

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]

Offline Vruth

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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2001, 02:00:00 PM »
To get back to the topic at hand, these canucks pilots sure earned their salaries that day

Here is a snipit from CBC News:

Events unfolded
-------------------
He said they were about 480 kilometres northeast of Lajes airport on the island of Terceira, their fallback airport, when they noticed a severe loss of fuel.
 
Pilot Robert Piché

Piché said it all happened very quickly, because they left Toronto with enough fuel. About 38 minutes after Piché noticed the fuel problem, the right engine stopped. Ten minutes later, the second engine failed. That left the jet at 33,000 feet over the Atlantic Ocean, at night, with no engines.

"It's not what pilots like to dream about," joked Piché.

He said that using only basic instruments and "great support" from traffic control in Santa Maria and Terceira, they glided the plane to the ground.

The cabin crew were first told to prepare passengers for a water landing. When they realized they could make the airport in Terceira, passengers were told to brace for a rough touchdown on land.

 
FO Dirk DeJager

All passengers were evacuated from the plane within 90 seconds.

   

----------
Over 300 people got out in just 90 seconds?!?!?!  WOW. That is insane.


More info:
CBC QuickTime Report

CBC RealVideo Report

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Vruth ]

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2001, 02:18:00 PM »
Any blown tires? Wonder what their final airspeed was on touch down...

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2001, 02:19:00 PM »
Yeah, all the tires blew out Rip.

They said airspeed was very hot.
-SW

Offline hblair

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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2001, 02:22:00 PM »
I'm no aeronautical engineer, how do they lower gear, flaps etc. with no engines? I'm guessing the hydraulics are operated by electric motors, is there a big bank of batteries to do that when the ngines aren't operating?

While we're on the subject, how does the electrical system get power from the jet engines?

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2001, 02:38:00 PM »
HB there is a thing called a RAT (ram air turbine) which provides electrical and hydraulic power in that case.  It is basically a little windmill which drops out of the fuselage.  If there are photos of this A330 after the emergency landing, you'll probably be able to see the RAT sticking out of the lower forward fuselage. http://ww3.hamiltonsundstrandcorp.com/aerospace/products/ram_air_turbine.htm

Electrical power is normally provided by AC generators which are attached to each engine.  These have a fancy transmission which takes the engine shaft speed (variable RPM) and converts it to a steady 400 Hz speed for the generator input shaft.  The generator/transmission assembly is called an IDG (integrated drive generator). http://ww3.hamiltonsundstrandcorp.com/aerospace/products/electric_pwr_dis_gen_sys.htm

There is also an APU which is a small gas turbine that drives a generator (plus a hydraulic pump and pneumatic compressor).  I am not sure if they use the RAT or the APU first if the engines quit.  I think it's the RAT but I'm no pilot. http://www.hs-powersystems.com/prodindex.htm

Good overview diagram here: http://ww3.hamiltonsundstrandcorp.com/aerospace/systems/electric/electric.htm

FYI I used to work in the plant where they make the RAT and IDG for the A330.  They also make the APU generator.  You can bet the guys who work on the RAT or APU generator are beaming about this safe landing.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]