Author Topic: How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?  (Read 3621 times)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2001, 08:35:00 AM »
About the only accumlators left that do anything other than precharge the system are the hydraulic brake accumulators. You still have a limited number of brake apps even if you lose the hydraulics. Pays not to cycle the anti-skid in these conditions  :)

Funked, the 727 is the only one in general commercial airline use (that I recall). The 707/-135 series debuted without a powered rudder; that's why losing water injection on one side during takeoff killed several -135 crews. They quickly added the powered rudder and almost immediately started having "hard over" problems. I think that's why the 727 might have gotten a "split" system, but I really only have supposition here. By the time the 737 came out, they thought they had a handle on the actuator problem.... or not.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Creamo

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5976
      • http://www.fatchicksinpartyhats.com
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2001, 08:48:00 AM »
Every Hydraulic system has a hydraulic accumulator, brakes, rudder, elevator, etc... It wont work without them.

They dampen the fluid supply and provide the constant pressure the systems need for on demand operations.

The bottles are about as big as a small volley ball, maybe 5 pounds. Hardly a weight problem, unless you think 3 cases of Pepsi are critical to the flight. (they carry pry 12 cases of pop)

And yes, in fact the precharge on the brake gives you a small amount of reserve. Not much.

I did a hydraulic leak on the 737 Rudder 3 weeks ago, the system is pretty cool. Can post AMM diagrams if ya want to get comprehensive.   :)

---

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]

Offline funkedup

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9466
      • http://www.raf303.org/
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2001, 03:58:00 PM »
Do it Creamo    :)

Creamo, I think Highflyer is talking about having a BIG accumulator to store energy and give you some emergency hydraulic capability.  I don't think they would do this on an airplane due to weight/space issues.  Just small accumulators to improve system dynamics and response as you stated.

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2001, 10:16:00 PM »
The F-15E has accumulators to run the canopy and start the JFS (jet fuel starter, a crummy APU substitute) and to run the emergency brakes.  The blow-down system on many small jet aircraft uses a high pressure nitrogen charge.  The T-37 has this for example.  Some aircraft simply rely on aerodynamic loads to pull the gear and doors down.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Creamo

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5976
      • http://www.fatchicksinpartyhats.com
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2001, 10:34:00 PM »
Oh, cc that Funky. I go to work Tues, will hook you up with the boring details.

Offline cp

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2001, 12:40:00 AM »
Just my opinon here but I have to go with United 232 as the best emergency landing (if you can call it a landing) of a commercial jet, given the situation. You all remember that one right? 1989 I think? Sioux City, Iowa.. DC-10 with a complete hydraulic failure. Not taking anything away from the Aloha 737 crew, but these UAL guys had no control of the plane other than the throttles..  and they got it on the runway.

Read this if youre unfamiliar : http://www.panix.com/~jac/aviation/haynes.html

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2001, 11:03:00 PM »
This just in to the news desk:

Subject: Airbus says maintenance flaw likely caused fuel leak.
 
August 30, 2001 Airbus says maintenance flaw likely caused fuel leak Air Transat landing Graeme Hamilton National Post Faulty maintenance appears to have caused the fuel-line rupture that left an Air Transat jet carrying 306 people without power midway across the Atlantic, the plane's manufacturer said yesterday in a worldwide bulletin.

Airbus, maker of the A330 that glided for 20 minutes before landing safely on the Azores Islands Friday, said the fuel leak was caused when a fuel pipe and a hydraulic pipe feeding the right engine rubbed together.

Rolls-Royce, manufacturer of the jet's two engines, had issued a service bulletin in March, 1999, modifying the two pipes to ensure adequate clearance between them. But in a telex sent yesterday to all airlines operating the same aircraft, Airbus said the bulletin's recommendations do not appear to have been fully applied on the right engine of the Air Transat jet.

Airbus told the 20 commercial airlines flying a total of 80 A330s with the same engines to conduct inspections within 72 hours to ensure there is no interference between the two pipes "due to installation of incompatible parts." It warns that "interference and wear" between the two pipes "can result in a significant fuel leak."

A similar memo issued by Rolls-Royce said the hydraulic pipe on the Air Transat plane was an old model, pre-dating the 1999 service bulletin. Rolls-Royce said the correct pipes were installed on the Air Transat jet's left engine.

Airbus and Rolls-Royce are co-operating with officials investigating the incident and have been made privy to information from the probe. Seychelle Harding, an Air Transat spokeswoman, declined to respond to the information in the Airbus telex. She said the Montreal-based charter airline will wait until the investigation is complete before commenting on the accident's cause. She confirmed the plane's right engine had been changed four days before the mishap after a routine check detected metal filings in the engine oil. The change, which was performed by Air Transat mechanics, would have required the reconnection of the fuel and hydraulic pipes.

The rapid fuel leak and subsequent loss of  power created a terrifying scene on board Air Transat Flight 236 as passengers were told to prepare for a ditching at sea when it seemed the plane would not reach the Azores. The flight out of Toronto was initially bound for Lisbon, but diverted toward the Azores when the fuel leak was detected. The plane's pilot, Captain Robert Piché, has  been hailed as a hero for managing a so-called dead-stick landing that caused only minor injuries during the plane's evacuation. Bernard Landry, the Premier of Quebec, said yesterday that Capt. Piché will be honoured in the legislature. "His accomplishment is worthy of world renown," Mr. Landry said.

Investigators are trying to determine how the plane, which had been adequately fuelled before takeoff, could have lost enough fuel to cripple both engines. The plane is designed to allow fuel leaks to be isolated and valves closed to stop a leak.

An official with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada has said the statistical chance of complete engine failure on the Airbus A330 is one in a billion. The Portuguese-led investigation yesterday began analyzing data from the plane's black boxes to get a better idea of what happened to the plane.

On Tuesday, investigators reported both engines failed as a result of "fuel starvation" and that the right engine's fuel line had failed. Nick Stoss, who is in the Azores representing Canada's Transportation Safety Board, said engine changes are not unusual during maintenance of large aircraft. All possible contributing factors, from aircraft design and manufacture to maintenance and crew performance, are being examined. "We're way too early in the investigation to rule anything out," Mr. Stoss said.

In Canada, Air Canada flies eight A330s with the same Rolls-Royce engines and Air Transat flies three. Both airlines reported yesterday that they had conducted the requested inspections and found no problems.

Spokeswomen for Airbus and Rolls-Royce declined to elaborate on the bulletins sent to A330 operators.

Totally unsubstantiated rumor department:

Apparently the pilots, noting the fuel unbalance, kept trying to correct it by pumping fuel into the low side....which was of course dumped overboard when it was put on that side.

End of totally unsubstantiated rumor department

I don't think we've heard it all as yet. Time will tell.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Russian

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2992
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2001, 11:42:00 PM »
Here's a pic that I said I'll show if asked by anyone. http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=72&t=000132

Offline Duckwing6

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 324
      • http://www.pink.at
How would you like to be in this position in Real Life?
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2001, 01:45:00 AM »
Well Airbus can go into it's own glider competition already ...

Remember the Hapag LLoyd A310 here in Vienna 1 year ago ?

Kind of scary is that with a fuel leak on one side they lost ALL fuel ?? now how would that work eh ?
Austrian had a problem a few month back with a A340 where they lost an engine (Bearing failure), and while switching fuel tanks they starved the 2 other engines on the other side ... A340 on 1 engine took em quite a while to relight No. 3 and 4.