Author Topic: Secret allied weapons of WW2  (Read 1557 times)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2009, 01:09:56 PM »
It is still biological.  You are using a animal in this case.

Nope. The animal was the delivery system, not the weapon.


biological warfare
n.
The use of disease-producing microorganisms, toxic biological products, or organic biocides to cause death or injury to humans, animals, or plants.


Bats do not fit the definition. Sorry.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 08:14:58 AM »
Even if Germany had more lethal gas than the allies, it is forgotten here that from 1941'ish or so, the Allies had a much more effective delivery of tonnage.
The allies also considered using typhus by the way.
The absence of the poisoned gas warfare in WW2 would IMHO be explained with the massive terror possible, - equal of why the big ones of the cold war never went for a nuke slugout.

Oh, and one of the most common and in the beginning, a secret weapon, of the allies was something the Axis didn't have. Heavily used to bring great results, starting in 1944 or so, - PENICILLIN.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline DrDea

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 08:58:19 AM »
Quote
In one experiment, the Canadians had dressed sheep and goats in two layers of battledress material and positioned them across a wide area, some in trenches, to be exposed to the killer darts.
Scientists predicted that symptoms displayed by the animals would be similar to those affecting humans.
Those damn Canadians never DID have any respect for the sheep.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2009, 09:08:06 AM »
Angus, that's naive. A single 500 kg bomb of nerve gas has the potential to kill thousands of people if dropped on a city like London. The German nerve gas was heavier than air and persistent, meaning it would creep down into cellars, bomb shelters and the underground where it would kill the mass concentration of people hiding there. The gas was persistent for weeks if not months meaning it would remain in cellars and craters and the sewer system killing anyone unfortunate enough to flush the toilet. Against mustard gas or other WWI poison gases you could defend yourself by using a gas mask and lots of clothes and the gas would dissipate fairly quickly. There was no such defense against the nerve gas; it is odorless, invisible and is absorbed through the skin in seconds. When you notice the symptoms you're already dieing.

A single 100 bomber Luftwaffe night raid on London with nerve gas bombs would have killed hundreds of thousands of people and made London a ghost town for weeks or months. There is a very good reason why this weapon is considered a "poor man's nuke" and why it is now classified as a weapon of mass destruction, a class previously reserved for atomic weapons only. In many ways nerve gas is even more insidious.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2009, 10:12:49 AM »
Are you talking of Sarin or??? Anyway, where were the Germans positioned with that stuff when the Allies were bombing the crap out of them (Hence the hauling ratio) and where was their knowledge of what the allies had?
Would have been one scary warhead on a V-2 though, and then a question of what the countermeasures could have been.
Allied surrender, - I think not.

And Naive.....thank you but I think not.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2009, 12:48:20 PM »
Oh, and don't forget about Anthrax. The effects on an urban area would be staggering, while the main reason for not using it (From the allied side) that it's catchy and would likely spread and pollute well into the occupied countries.
In short, my point was that already in WW2, the Germans and the Allies alike had the power of mass destruction. Both of them. Neither one knew how far the enemy was in the business, and mustard gas being the most probable  led to the mandatory military gas-mask.
No-safe against anthrax, nor even Zyklon-B if you just used tons of it. It will kill you through the skin as easily as mustard gas would actually......
Just another naive point.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2009, 01:04:34 PM »
Tabun (1936), sarin (1939) and soman (1944). The Germans started weaponizing tabun in 1939. The western allies captured about 250,000 tons of chemical weapons during their advance through Europe. It is unknown how much the Soviets captured during their advance, but they dismantled the tabun factory in Dyhernfurth and brought it with them to Russia.

Tabun is toxic even in minute doses. The number and severity of symptoms which appear vary according to the amount of the agent absorbed and rate of entry of it into the body. Very small skin dosages sometimes cause local sweating and tremors accompanied with characteristically constricted pupils with few other effects. Tabun is about half as toxic as sarin by inhalation, but in very low concentrations it is more irritating to the eyes than sarin. Also, tabun breaks down slowly, which after repeated exposure can lead to build up in the body.

The effects of tabun appear slowly when tabun is absorbed through the skin rather than inhaled. A victim may absorb a lethal dose quickly, although death may be delayed for one to two hours. It should be noted that a person's clothing can release the toxic chemical for up to 30 minutes after exposure. Inhaled lethal dosages kill in one to ten minutes, and liquid absorbed through the eyes kills almost as fast. However, people who experience mild to moderate exposure to tabun can recover completely, if treated almost as soon as exposure occurred. The LCt50 for tabun is about 400 mg-min/m3, so a 500 kg bomb would contaminate a volume of air of about 1.2 million cubic meters or 40 million cubic feet (at 90% aerosol efficiency) where a lethal dose would require one minute of exposure. Since tabun is heavier than air and persistent it would blanket the ground covering about a square kilometer to a square mile depending on terrain.

Treatment for tabun poisoning is often three injections of a nerve agent antidote, such as atropine. Pralidoxime chloride also works as an antidote; however, it must be administered within minutes to a few hours following exposure to be effective. None of these antidotes were available during WWII.

Why the Germans didn't use chemical weapons has already been posted in this thread.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2009, 01:08:43 PM »
Yeah, "Operation Vegetarian"  :lol
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2009, 01:16:33 PM »
For comparison the LCt50 for mustard gas is 10,000 mg-min/m3.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 01:19:35 PM by Die Hard »
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Offline Angus

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2009, 03:23:07 PM »
From a military point of view one could say that Hitler was stupid for not letting his generals use these weapons. From a humanitarian point of view it is one of the very few things Hitler did that we can be thankful for.

Is this the answer you mentioned?
The commonly accepted historical explanation is that the German intelligence didn't know (or did Canaris filter that one out? We'd never know...) how well ahead they were in chemical warfare. So what they expected was that if they got really dirty, they'd get the same payback.
Which was in a sense right, since the British were were well enough stocked with Anthrax in the late war to lay waste to the German population. Only problem was that it would carry on to other countries. But surely deadly enough. Chemical vs bacterial, - both dirty.
And heavy bombing of mustard gas...well....not good.

Then the bat bombs. Was actually a nasty idea and did work. Very much more effective than incendiaries if I remember right, and incendiaries were the ones that caused the most catastrophic firestorms of WW2 urban bombings. Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2009, 03:29:58 PM »
No this:

The Nazis invented nerve gas in WWII and produced a sizable stockpile of weaponized chemical weapons. The only reason they weren't used was that Hitler abhorred chemical weapons because he was himself a victim of a mustard gas attack during WWI. He ordered they only be used in response to an Allied chemical attack. If the Allies had used their, by comparison, primitive WWI chemical weapons it could have changed the outcome of the war. Germany would have had a huge advantage.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2009, 03:41:57 PM »
Uhm.. it wasn't just Hitler that was against using chemical weapons.

After the bombing of Dresden, Josef Göbbels demanded retaliation strikes on English Cities using Tabun during a conference on February 19/20 1945. He was opposed most notably by Großadmiral Karl Dönitz as well as the Chief of the Operations Staff of the Armed Forces High Command, Alfred Jodl, who argued the drawbacks would outweigh the pros.


From a military point of view one could say that Hitler was stupid for not letting his generals use these weapons. From a humanitarian point of view it is one of the very few things Hitler did that we can be thankful for.

hmm... I can't remember any higher echelon Generals demanding large scale operations using Chemical weapons, or any plans in doing such a thing that were prohibited by Hitler. Or maybe I just missed something?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 03:43:46 PM by Lusche »
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2009, 03:44:21 PM »
"The United States began producing chemical weapons late in the conflict. they established the Chemical Warfare Service (CWS) and first participated in a chemical weapons attack with the British October 13, 1918. One of the casualties of that attack was a young infantryman named Adolf Hitler. The gas inflicted such pain that Hitler had to be evacuated to Germany. The attack may have saved countless lives because it cemented in Hitler a lifelong hate of chemical weapons which influenced many policies in the second World War.

The beginning of modern chemical warfare unequivocally begins in the German search for new Pesticides in the 1920s and 1930s. With the loss of territory after World War I and Germany's desire to lessen its reliance on food importation, the German leadership emphasized the need for new Insecticides to increase production. Chemist Gerhard Schrader was tasked with finding new non-flammable, non-harmful Insecticides to elimante the treat from the bool weavil (Tucker, 2006). Schrader synthesized a series of "organophosphates" - organic molecules with a central Phosphorous atom and four atoms extending off of it. Schrader made the [organophosphates more potent by adding cyanide. These molecules had undesirable side effects on the chemist including blurred vision, dilated pupils, and eventually became sever enough to warrant hospitalization (Tucker, 2006).

As Schrader continued work on this cyanide-containing compound, the unpleasant side effects continued to manifest themselves at the slightest whiff of the vapor. Further toxicological testing on mice, guinea pigs, rabbits, apes, and others reveled a frighteningly high level of toxicity to this new [insecticide] tentatively named Le-100 (Le as an abbreviation for Leverkusen, the German city where it was synthesized). Very small amounts led to vomiting, bronchial tube constriction, diarrhea, paralysis of breathing muscles, and eventual death. This made Le-100 far too toxic to use as a commercial insecticide, but the findings were passed on to the German government's War Office.

A good number of people in the War Department felt that chemical weapons were a viable military weapon. Gas had recently been used with good results by the Italians in their march on Ethiopia and its Emperor Haile Selassie (Tucker, 2006). The German government took over production of Le-100, renaming it Tabun, an invented word with no particular meaning. The field testing of Tabun were successful and it was shortly declared the German chemical weapon of choice. The German authorities designated the somewhat reluctant [IG Faber] to build a plant capable of producing 1,000-2,000 metric tons of Tabun per month (Tucker, 2006).

As Tabun was entering widescale production, Schrader had returned to his laboratory at the German Army's Gas Protection Lab (he had been moved from Leverkusen here after he synthesized Tabun) and was working on a new set of Insecticides using [flourine] rather than cyanide. During the latter part of 1938, Schrader synthesized a compound that proved to be 5-10 times more lethal than Tabun and would name it Sarin, which was an acronym for the four scientists most closely associated with the compound - S chrader, A mbrose, R udiger, and L IN de (Tucker, 2006).

World War II
Hitler's aversion to chemical weapons continued throughout the second World War. Against the wishes of many of his high commanders, Hitler wanted to use chemical weapons only in retaliation against a similar attack. However, he continued to push the German military to produce and stockpile weapons to ensure German superiority should the Allies commence chemical warfare (Tucker, 2006).

The Germans had a large head start on production, though they were not entirely convinced of this. Otto Ambros, a leading German chemist who had been instrumental in synthesizing Sarin, believed that the Allies had independently discovered some sort of nerve agent because of similar insecticidal research they were conducting prior to the war. Even if the Allies did not have it, Ambros felt that "in the event that Germany were to use this special gas, other countries would not only be able to imitate it quickly but could produce it in considerably larger quantities" (Tucker, 2006). The immense production capabilities of the Allies and the fact that they had immense stockpiles of artillery and bombs with mustard and Phosgene in which to retaliate with provided a sufficient deterrent to the German use of chemical weapons.

The Allies did not in fact have anything near the lethality of Tabun or Sarin. The closest compound the Allies could produce was DFP which could, at high doses, produce unconsciousness. The US Office of Scientific Research and Development and universities throughout the States synthesized over 200 Organophosphates including many with [flourine] yet none approached the toxicity of Tabun or Sarin (Tucker, 2006). The British scientists at Porton Down discovered Tabun in 1944 after the army raided a building holding German munitions. They extracted the liquid, analyzed it, and tested it on laboratory rabbits amazed at its lethality.

The only deliberate use of gas in World War II was extensive Mustard Gas use by the Japanese during their 1937 invasion of Manchuria. Some studies have claimed that more than 2,000 separate incidences of poison gas use in that campaign, though that number very well could be inflated (Hutchinson, 2006). Numerous instances are recorded that either side in the European theater, the Allies or the Axis, were on the verge of using gas at some point but retreated."
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2009, 03:58:21 PM »
Hitler authorized the use of chemical weapons once during the war; against the fortress of Sevastopol because it proved so difficult to defeat. There were other unauthorized uses, mostly on the eastern front, but nothing major. Even as the Allied troops stormed ashore in Normandy Hitler refused multiple requests from his commanders to deploy gas to counter the invasion.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Unit791

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Re: Secret allied weapons of WW2
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2009, 07:02:50 PM »
I have high doubts either side would have even considered using such weapons.  The consiquences of mistakes would be devastating.  An example-


A large formation of B-17 flying over Fortress Europe are ready to deliver a massive payload of Anthrax/Nerve Gas/Mustard Gas/whatever.  They are about 18,000 feet when a lone B-17 is hit in the cockpit by a chunk of flak and the thing goes spiraling in....over a city like Brussels, Gronignen, Alkmaar, or Chartres.  Thousands would have died.  The effects of chemical weapons over civilian population of occupied, not German, but occupied cities would, I think, ruin the U.S.'s future relations with those countries, and perhaps even cause hostilities when liberated.
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