Secret allied weapons of WW2

[crazyivan]

Guys played Indians too much, imho. Or found really good weed somethere.

In the bathhouse too dang  long!

[Angus]

All boils down to them both having a wildcard of a WMD. The Germans didn't know how the balance was, neither did the allies, but what they DID know is that by only applying what they had in 1916 would be enough to make things wilder than one could imagine.
The Gerries could have mustard gassed London in 1940, only to have the same amount on Hamburg etc, they could have nerve gassed London in 1944, but by then the British could have Anthraxed the whole of Germany into a wasteland. No predicting of the outcome, - well either a defeat or a completely phyrric victory....or a mutual defeat....
Just like a big nuke war.

But Penicillin....now that was one you could use

[Die Hard]

They could have nerve gassed London in 1940. However, even in 1945 with Germany in ruins Hitler said no.

[Angus]

Well, he didn't like mustard gas. In HIS cities for sure.

[Stoney]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Raid_on_Bari

Some interesting trivia that I found doing research for an FSO setup.

[Angus]

Saw it. There was readiness for using the stuff. And then the typical mandatory gas-mask that most or all servicemen had to carry....and never used. (Well, throw the mask and use it for storing cigarettes)
If mustard gas was used in some proper dose, the mask would not save you. Well, your lungs would not blister on the inside, but your skin would burn. Through clothes. Enough skin burned and you die, - way before that you are capable of just about nothing.
Recently read a book that had some things about nerve gas. From Adam Hall about the spy "Quiller"

[Die Hard]

During the Great War mustard gas was lethal in only 1% of the cases. The remaining 99% were only injured by it, like Hitler was. Horrible injuries, but in most cases only temporary. The reason the crew of the John Harvey and those Italian civilians died was because they didn't know what they had been subjected to. Most if not all of them would have survived it they had been given a bath or shower immediately after exposure; even so less than 20% of the known victims died, and they were hit with 120,000 lbs of mustard gas. If it had been tabun, the number of victims would have been 100-fold and the death ratio would have been close to 100%.

[Stoney]

My point in posting that was not to debate the details of the Bari incident, but merely to show that the U.S. had it in theater, and was prepared to use it if they deemed it necessary.

[Angus]

And Anthrax...80% or so. To begin with. Also including lifestock.
Use Anthrax and you crash the food program with just a little of it. However it's hard to stop, and the effect will last for a very very very long time.
In short, powerful enough to "nuke" a nation into the stone age.
And it doesn't work immediately. Will take just a few days, - imagine tabun with a delay fuse...

Now to the Tabun....

- Very absolutely poisoned.
- Hard to handle (keep)

The Germans had quite a plant to produce it and it ended up being ready, but in 1940 it would have been Sarin, and then only in the late autumn? Now they could have used it and would have been able to carry enough to kill insane numbers, - it might have been able to bend the UK perhaps. But then there is the scary factor, - the UK responding with whatever (unknown) they had, and/or the rest of the world turning against Germany in a whiff.
Only mustard gas, which "During the Great War mustard gas was lethal in only 1% of the cases. The remaining 99% were only injured by it, like Hitler was. Horrible injuries, but in most cases only temporary" would have been a very bad thing on an urban area. Urban areas are after all, much more windstill than the open fields of WWI.

Oh, and a blunder...."less than 20% of the known victims died" (mustard gas) and "If it had been tabun, the number of victims would have been 100-fold".
I presume you mean (as in the end of the sentence) "the death ratio would have been close to 100%." I would not doubt that, since the Tabun is very...something...nasty.

Anyway, getting back to the mustard gas, try and ponder on what 1.500 tonnes of it would do if dropped on an urban area in windstill in the timeframe of an hour or two. Nothing nice I think.

[Die Hard]

You're getting your poisons mixed up.

Tabun is the first nerve agent that went into production in 1939. The Germans didn't start sarin production until 1944, and only a small amount was weaponized before the end of the war. Sarin is about twice as effective as tabun, but not as persistant.

Now to the antrax: Antrax has been used as a biological weapon since ancient times to kill livestock and horses, and is described to have killed 40,000 horses and 100,000 cattle in the possession of the Huns during their movement across Eurasia in 80 AD. Antrax wasn't properly weaponized for use against humans during WWII. The 1944 British project was aimed at Germany's livestock, not people. Infected cow patties are not going to infect many people, or start an epidemic.

When Antrax was weaponized in the late 1950s or early 60s they found that gas masks or even just breathing through a damp cloth will protect a person from an anthrax attack. However, anthrax is extremely persistent and would cause random cases of the illness, perhaps even small outbreaks for decades after an attack. Antrax is deadly against an unprepared population and thus perfect as a terror weapon, but as a weapon of war it is very limited in its usefulness.



HOW TO WEAPONIZE ANTHRAX: (This is not a secret, it was printed in TIME)

1 DRY THE SPORES
If they are grown on a culture medium, anthrax spores need to be dried. Because they are so durable, they can be freeze dried, heat dried or spray dried

2 MILL THE SPORES
Once the spores are dry, they are ground down to the smallest possible particle size, anywhere from one micron (one spore) to 20 microns. The process adds electrostatic charges to the particles, which makes them clump together

3 NEUTRALIZE THE SPORES
Chemicals such as bentonite or silica are added to remove the electrostatic charge and allow the tiny particles to float in the air

...AND HOW IT DOES ITS DEADLY WORK
In order to cause disease, at least 8,000 to 10,000 spores need to lodge deep in the lungs, in the tiniest air sacs known as alveoli. The warm, moist environment, and possibly the concentration of carbon dioxide in the lungs, stimulates the bacterium to emerge from its protective spore. As each bacterium reproduces, it releases toxins, which eventually spread throughout the body and destroy tissue and organs.

Oh, and a blunder...."less than 20% of the known victims died" (mustard gas) and "If it had been tabun, the number of victims would have been 100-fold".
I presume you mean (as in the end of the sentence) "the death ratio would have been close to 100%." I would not doubt that, since the Tabun is very...something...nasty.

I meant that instead of 600 known victims there would be 60,000 victims (100-fold), and instead of 80 dead it would be close to 60,000 dead (close to 100%). They could treat mustard gas poisoning and managed to save 80% of the exposed. They couldn't have treated tabun poisoning.

[oakranger]

Anthrax is a natural dieseas that does occur in livestock too.

[Angus]

Anthrax is natural. So is Botulin. And nasty enough.
Recently, close to where I live, a water channel opened close to an old anthrax grave of stock (1940 if I recall) and some spurs managed to get into the drinking water of a group of a few horses. 100 % death. The carcasses were burned and the whole area sealed off for quite a while.
In many places on the continent of Europe ages ago (and perhaps the UK), where anthrax-infected cattle were dug down, threes (oak?) were planted to mark the spot. The spot not necessarily being in a good place, which explanes the odd oak (?) still standing in the middle of a huge field. The idea was to mark the spot for further generations.
(My memory, not Wiki, but would be interesting to know.
Anyway, a wiki one on anthrax...:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverdlovsk_anthrax_leak
"All workers of a ceramic plant across the street fell ill during the next few days. Almost all of them died in a week"
More (another article though)
"At least 94 people were infected, of whom at least 68 died"

"Anthrax was first tested as a biological warfare agent by Unit 731 of the Japanese Kwantung Army in Manchuria during the 1930s; some of this testing involved intentional infection of prisoners of war, thousands of whom died. Anthrax, designated at the time as Agent N, was also investigated by the allies in the 1940s. The British army tested experimental anthrax weapons on Gruinard Island, off the northwest coast of Scotland, in 1943. Gruinard was burned over at least once, yet as of the late 1980s, it was still too heavily contaminated with spores to allow unprotected human access, indicating the hardiness of anthrax spores."


Now Sarin and Tabun. I mixed them up, since what I can find mentions Tabun getting ready in 1942, Sarin in 1944. Tabun was troublesome to deal with so I am curious to know if there were ready devices for serious aerial bombardments in 1940

Dang, sometimes I bless the windy lowlands where I live 

[Die Hard]

The Sverdlovsk anthrax leak was weaponized anthrax, not anthrax infected cow patties which the British stockpiled a few million of. Infecting prisoners is also very easy, but no practical method of weaponization was found during WWII, which probably is the only reason the Japanese didn't use it.

The Germans started production of tabun in 1939 at their pilot plant near Munster-Lager, and started construction of a larger production facility in Dyernfurth-am-Oder (now Brzeg Dolny in Poland), on the Oder River 40 km from Breslau (now Wroclaw) in Silesia. The Dyernfurth production plant wasn't operational until 1942, but by then the Munster-Lager plant had produced 70,000 kg of tabun, or in other words somewhat more than the total mustard gas bomb cargo of the John Harvey we discussed earlier. By the end of 1944 the total tabun production is estimated at 30,000 tons.

The Luftwaffe could have nerve gassed London in 1940, but it would have been a limited attack... However, perhaps one attack would have been enough.

[DREDIOCK]

Personally I think the dart idea is a poor one as wherever we used it. we would probobly end up sending in our troops where they would inadvertently get stuck by them themselves by the remaining darts that didnt hit anyone whenever they had to "hit the deck"
Bad enough they had unexploded ord ,mine fields and booby traps to contend with let alone hundreds of thousands of itty bitty darts lying around all over the ground.

[Angus]

"The Luftwaffe could have nerve gassed London in 1940, but it would have been a limited attack... However, perhaps one attack would have been enough."

I know they had some nerve-gas, but they had a problem just containing it. Did they have the devices ready for transport and dropping it from aircraft?
Wonder if Hitler knew this to detail. What he would have assumed (if I try to put myself into his boots) is that the British would have gone "dirty" as well. The minimum of that would have been mustard gassing of the easiest targets, depending on weather and range, as well as anything they possibly had, - since he didn't know that.
So, - it's a call for "go dirty or not", and it work exactly like the balance of terror in the cold war.