Author Topic: Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH  (Read 7927 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2001, 03:43:00 PM »
 
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My experience has a great deal to do with the P-38. I spent most of my career in piston engine, prop driven twins in the 17,000 to 25,000 lb class having power to weight ratios equal to the P-38

Can't help but notice you have left out the plane you had experience with.  What plane was it?  I've seen alot of twin turboprop planes that probably weighed similar to a P-38.. I'd venture to say not many (any?) of them performed the same.

This is the only place where Voss actually has a point.  How many of the more recent P-38 crashes were a result of pilots that felt having flight time in similar aircraft was sufficient?

Basically, if you are going to cite experience.. you'd better be prepared to get specific.  What aircraft do you have experience in?  You brought it up.. now back it up.

AKDejaVu

Offline AKDejaVu

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2001, 03:50:00 PM »
From an aboved mentioned web site:

 
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He is also a veteran of Naval Aviation, having accumulated more than 2,300 flight hours in various naval aircraft in the role of Flight Engineer, crewchief and and loadmaster. Mr. Jordan has worked for the past 20 years in private sector research and development, earning numerous patents for various original designs and technological advancements in several disciplines.

Widewing, you FLEW these planes?  Or you FLEW IN these planes?

AKDejaVu

Offline AKDejaVu

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2001, 03:54:00 PM »
Just to amend the above...

I agree with most of what you wrote Widewing.  I don't agree with much of what Voss wrote.  I get the feeling your research was more accurate than his.

My main problem is the use of flight hours in cargo planes to justify enhanced knowledge of P-38 handling characteristics.  If you've done the research, there is no need to back it up with exageration.

AKDejaVu

funked

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2001, 04:30:00 PM »
You one-plane zealot guys are amusing.  

Offline F4UDOA

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2001, 05:05:00 PM »
Funked,

I prefer to think of myself as a monogamous Warbird enthusiast.

Offline Widewing

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2001, 07:29:00 PM »
AKdejaVu offered up this challenge:
"Basically, if you are going to cite experience.. you'd better be prepared to get specific.  What aircraft do you have experience in?  You brought it up.. now back it up."

As a general rule, I ignore those who feel that the world must bow to their demands. Inasmuch as your three posts come across as thinly disguised demand, I seriously considered responding with "who the hell are
you to demand anything from me?" However, if we strip away your schoolyard posturing, you do have a legitimate question.

Therefore, in the interest of the discussion, I would be happy to elaborate on what aircraft I crewed.

1) US-2B: Essentially an S-2F stripped of all anti-sub electronics and used for training and utility purposes. Weighing in at
about 18,500 lbs, it was powered by two Wright R-1820 engines developing 1,525 hp each for takeoff. My position: Flying Crew Chief. Usually sits right seat unless non-crew passengers are aboard, operates radios and basic navigation. Frequently allowed to share flying duties. Best opportunity to learn multi-engine skills. Most Crew Chiefs are trained to land the aircraft in an emergency. Total time 149.3 hours.

2) C-1A: A development of the S-2 for the COD mission (Carrier Onboard Delivery). It is powered by the same engines as the US-2B, but can weight over 25,000 lbs fully loaded.
C-1A requires two pilots if passengers are aboard. If not, one pilot and Crew Chief are adequate. Same advantages and training as  above. 330 traps logged in C-1A. This aircraft accelerates faster from a dead stop than the P-38L. Its roll rate is greater than the P-61, and can maneuver with an AD-1.
Being much cleaner than the S-2F, an empty C-1A can reach 282 mph at sea level. Nonetheless, with its huge, high-lift wing, and fixed slots, it was never going to be a fast aircraft. However, its low speed handling was not unlike the P-38, with the C-1A actually having much better roll response due to full span, pop-up spoilers linked to the ailerons. The S-2 was designed to execute extremely tight turns at low speeds and low altitudes. In this capacity, it is remarkably maneuverable. As I stated, the C-1A/US-2B has a power loading very close to the P-38J. Unlike the P-38, both engines turn in the same direction, so the P factor is present. That is why the aircraft has a vertical stabilizer and rudder the size of a barn door, with rudder boost should be be required. This controls torque quite nicely. These are very popular with the warbird crowd, because they are relatively inexpensive and a hoot to fly. Total time: 1,329.5 hours

HU-16D: We operated the Navy's last two amphibians. Crew Chief sometimes allowed to sit right seat and fly. However, the Albatross required two qualified pilots, and seat time was limited to cruise only. I crewed the last flight of the last amphibian in Naval service. Total time: 116.0 hours.

C-118B: Qualified as Flight Engineer, also qualified as Loadmaster. FE is third man in cockpit with specific duties and responsibilities. Total time: 457.8 hours.

C-131F: Qualified as Flight Engineer and Loadmaster. Total time: 321.6 hours.

TA-4J: Twin seat, advanced trainer and Light Attack. I logged just over 20 hours in the back seat. Of that time, perhaps 4-5 hours was spent actually flying the aircraft. I would trade flight time for excess crew seats on stateside bound flights. It took 18 months to get those 20 hours. I was also fortunate to get two hops in the RIO seat of the F-4J Phantom. Being ejection seat qualified made that possible. However, all you do in the F-4J is enjoy the ride. The carrier approach is a charge, because you can't see diddly from the rear seat while in nose-high short approach attitude. Logged two
traps in Phantom. Total TA-4J time: 20.1 hours.

Total yellow sheet time: 2,374.2 hours.

So, there it is. I hope this made your day.

My regards,

Widewing


My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline AKDejaVu

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2001, 08:24:00 PM »
Well I must have struck a nerve.

I have over 500 hours in various cargo planes.  C-130, C-5 and C-141 with some C-21 and other smaller things thrown in there. I'm sitting here trying to wonder how the hell that would matter in regards to anything.  I just can't see it.

If you want to sit and explain the loading characteristics of each aircaft or give adequate explanations of various hydraulic/neumatic/electronic components... I will bow to your training and experience.

If you want to tell me how to line a plane up for final aproach on a carrier or how much flap is required at take-off on any of those planes, I yield to your experience.  I actually envy you that experience.

If you want to tell me any of this means anything when claiming features on the P-38, I'll have to call roadkill.  Keep it in the records where it belongs.  Your military experience does not make you any more/less of an expert on WW2 craft than anyone else that's done the same ammount of research.

I've seen several military pilots on this bbs.  To a man, each of them will hop in instantly and describe blackout effects and various other flight characteristic knowledge in regards to fundamentals.  I have yet to see one of them use that experience as proof that they are more knowledgeable on the p-38... or any other fighter.

AKDejaVu


Offline Widewing

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2001, 10:42:00 PM »
AKDejaVu rambled:

"If you want to tell me any of this means anything when claiming features on the P-38, I'll have to call roadkill.  Keep it in the records where it belongs.  Your military experience does not make you any more/less of an expert on WW2 craft than anyone else that's done the same ammount of research."

First of all, where have I claimed that my experience makes me more of an expert of the P-38? The answer is nowhere. I wrote: "Gee, and I thought my 332 traps (a trap is a full-stop landing on an aircraft carrier, a real carrier) and 2,400 hours (in real military aircraft) would have provided me with some useful insight into the handling of the P-38."

Do you grasp the meaning of "useful insight"? Don't you think that several hundred hours of actual cockpit experience and flight training in twin-engine aircaft of comparible power and weight, provides some relevant insight into the handling of an aircraft with several significant similarities? Well, it is certainly the case. I have spent countless hours discussing the P-38 and its performance with pilots who have flown the aircraft in combat.
It is easy to relate to if you have a basis for understanding. Moreover, these pilots will tell you that it was always a major advantage if the prospective P-38 pilot had some time in some other big twins such as the A-20 or even B-25. Hell, the 20th FG used a B-25 for basic multi-engine training of single-engine pilots who were assigned to fly the P-38. Why, because they had some similar characteristics. Likewise, the Lockheed Hudson was used to train P-38 pilots. Aircraft such as these DO give one insight and understanding. Moreso than the ultra-simplistic environment of a flight sim. That was my original point, but you obviously missed it and twisted my remarks well beyond anything close to a reasonable intereptation.

I can appreciate your time in the C-130, C-141 and C-5A. That is all well and good. A close friend of mine is a C-130 Loadmaster with the 106th Air Rescue here on Long Island. However, I'll wager that the those times when you went to the flight deck were not related to actually flying the aircraft or operating its in-flight systems, right? Or, am I misunderstanding your role?

Can you relate to the use of rudder and differential throttle to overcome the inertia related lag in initial roll response in the P-38? I can, because we experimented with this in a US-2B. Can you relate to the need for positive back pressure on the yoke to get a P-38 to rotate and lift off. Most aircraft of the era would fly themselves off the runway if properly trimmed. However, like the P-38 and A-26, the US-2B and C-1A will not readily do so. These are samples of the insight gained from actual experience. That does not make one an expert, but it does provide a basis for understanding that cannot be gained by flying a PC. What about systems management? Fuel management? Operation of multiple engines? How about single engine procedures? All of these things were learned and provide the basis for better understanding of their counterparts relating to the P-38. How about the loss of an engine on takeoff? The procedures are nearly identical, and if you can handle this in a C-1A, you can handle it in the P-38. Is this sinking in yet?

Quite honestly, your argument is without substance and I'm becoming rather bored debating your lack of understanding.

My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Swoop

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2001, 11:34:00 PM »
I have only one thing to say about this entire thread.

Good grief.


Swoop

Offline Dune

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2001, 12:32:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by funked:
You one-plane zealot guys are amusing.    

Hell, Funky-one, you know I'm really a Mustang fan.  It just bugs me to watch people grab something they misread once and preach it like gospel.

You oughta see me when people don't agree that H. Beam Piper was the best Sci-fi writer of all time  


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Offline Jekyll

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2001, 02:47:00 AM »
 
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Can you relate to the need for positive back pressure on the yoke to get a P-38 to rotate and lift off.

I would imagine this is the result of a negative angle of incidence of the wing when the nosewheel was in contact with the ground.  No matter how fast you drive that P38, it would never unstick without assistance from the pilot.

Other WW2 fighters were taildraggers, and would therefore not need positive back pressure to fly off the runway.

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Offline Vermillion

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2001, 07:43:00 AM »
I'm with Funked, its almost like a religion for some of you guys.

Next thing I expect to see is someone truck bombing... errr ummm mail bombing   the BBS and screaming.

"Kurt Tank is Great... Kurt Tank is Great" in arabic.

And the someone else comes in and takes Pyro hostage screaming... "The Luftwobbles are all heritics!!! We all know that Vought was the true Messiah!!!".

Sheeesh  

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funked

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #102 on: January 23, 2001, 07:48:00 AM »
* Vision of 12 year old girls arguing the relative merits of N-Sync and the Backstreet Boys. *

Offline BUG_EAF322

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2001, 08:20:00 AM »
I think widewing just made a point that a bigger twin engined crate can accelerate, roll and turn like hell. Because he flown in types SIMILAR (weight and power)to the P38 not just like the 38.

I never flown a plane just 15 minutes maybe in a piper bonzana so i can't tell.

But there some types here like saying they got the knowlegde. Wich rembers me to some types when i was in service with the army. Who would go home with a green (commando) baret on their head . Wich they wheren't offcourse, now that makes me sick.

I'm sure widewing ain't that type

<S> widewing good postings

Offline Westy

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Boy was I wrong. P-38 is suposed to be crappy like it is in AH
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2001, 09:18:00 AM »
 This is just a  post to thank Widewing very much for his participation.
  <S> Sir!   I've been enjoying the articles at your web site and your posts on usenet for some time.  It is a real pleasure to "see" you here.

  -Westy