Fiat G.55 I centauro

[Krusty]

CR.42 was certainly obsolete already before the war started but unfortunately for Italian fighter pilots, it most certainly was "on its way out". Cr.42 was still in production when C.200 production ceased.

Production for what means? Not for Italian Air Force needs, that's for sure. It was being exported. As you mention Hungary used it. Other nations did too. Ones that could or did not build their own air forces. Those being produced were being exported and the plane was not a frontline fighter.

When the war started in 1939 Italy had about 250 of the biplanes in service. They had some raids into Southern France. They moved about 50 planes to Belgium to help with the BOB but they were there only 3-4 months, suffered large casualties, and claimed serious over-exaggerated victories.

They helped the war in N. Africa until Hurricanes showed up and they were relegated to ground strafing duties. This as early as 1941, mind you. As early as spring 1941 they were being transitioned to ground attack duties and monoplanes were replacing them as quickly as possible. Throughout 1941 they continued to transition. After the battle of El Alamein only 82 were left to retreat back to Italy (spring of 1942).

In 1940 over Greece they had some success against far worse airframes, but as soon as the RAF showed up with Gladiators and later on Hurricanes, the tables turned significantly.

In East Africa a small group held out until late 1941 but were finished off by November of that year.

After 1941 they were not sent into combat as fighters. They were relegated to rear action duties, troop strafing, dropping very small bombs in anti personnel duties, etc.

They were as obsolete as the Stuka. Mind you the Stuka served on after it was withdrawn from front-line duties in BOB as well. It was never sent into the front line action again, though. The same goes for the Cr42.


Calling it a frontline fighter is like calling the Lysander a frontline attack plane for the RAF.

[Krusty]

<sigh>

Me410 most certainly had DB603s.

I'm sorry, getting my numbers mixed up on the DBs... I retract the comment as I meant 605 apparently.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Stoney, I also have to disagree with your assessment of why folks ask for it. You seem to be under the impression folks only ask for it because they think it's uber.

*Paid for by the Krusty for G.55 committee.*

Undoubtedly, SOME might want it in the vain hope that it'll transform them into uberpiloten. However, there are more than one stripe of kitty playing the game.

My own interest is in the fact that it's anothoer DB-engined aircraft mounted to a different airframe. It'd be really interesting to compare and contrast to the beloved 109G-14.

I need to run the wingloading numbers - I suspect they're better. Likewise, the firepower is better internally. OTOH, the roll inertia HAS to be up (but does the aileron design offset the loss in roll agility - something none too great on the 109 as is?) and the weight has to be up as well. I note the top speed is lower than the belowed G-14. Climb rate looks diminished as well, since, (and without benefit of looking it up) the g-14 exceeds 3500 ft/min all the way up to 20k and this pig's taking 7+ to get to 20k.

[Krusty]

I note the top speed is lower than the belowed G-14. Climb rate looks diminished as well

Naturally the G14 came later. This is a 1943 design. There was no MW50 for Italian rides, either. Compare it to a G6 without MW50 and you'll see it's much closer. With the Italian power restrictions and engine tolerances, though, the boost would be lower than a G-6 and the WEP limited to 5 minutes most likely (like the C205).

[Wmaker]

Production for what means? Not for Italian Air Force needs, that's for sure. It was being exported. As you mention Hungary used it. Other nations did too. Ones that could or did not build their own air forces. Those being produced were being exported and the plane was not a frontline fighter.

When the war started in 1939 Italy had about 250 of the biplanes in service. They had some raids into Southern France. They moved about 50 planes to Belgium to help with the BOB but they were there only 3-4 months, suffered large casualties, and claimed serious over-exaggerated victories.

They helped the war in N. Africa until Hurricanes showed up and they were relegated to ground strafing duties. This as early as 1941, mind you. As early as spring 1941 they were being transitioned to ground attack duties and monoplanes were replacing them as quickly as possible. Throughout 1941 they continued to transition. After the battle of El Alamein only 82 were left to retreat back to Italy (spring of 1942).

In 1940 over Greece they had some success against far worse airframes, but as soon as the RAF showed up with Gladiators and later on Hurricanes, the tables turned significantly.

In East Africa a small group held out until late 1941 but were finished off by November of that year.

After 1941 they were not sent into combat as fighters. They were relegated to rear action duties, troop strafing, dropping very small bombs in anti personnel duties, etc.

Like I said, it indeed was obsolete but unfortunately for Italian fighter pilots it was indeed used as a frontline fighter and served as one in BoF, BoB, Malta and Africa.

CR.42 units: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/falco_ra.htm

The CR.42 Falco (Falcon) was the last of the great biplane fighters entering flight testing in late May 1938. It was a successor of CR.32 that had claimed great success in the Spanish skies during the civil war.
The CR.42 was manufactured in larger numbers than any other Italian fighter, remaining in production as late as 1943. Extremely light on the controls, universally viewed as a delight to fly, superbly agile and innately robust, the CR.42 synthesised a decade-and-a-half of continuos fighter development; it was a thoroughbred with a distinguished pedigree carrying fighter biplane evolution to its apex. But its intrinsic qualities were those demanded of an earlier era in aerial warfare than that in which it was to find itself. The CR.42 was nevertheless to see combat throughout WWII and, curiously, was to fight against the Luftwaffe, alongside the Luftwaffe and with the Luftwaffe itself, singing the swan song of the fighter biplane while doing so. http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/falco.htm

They were as obsolete as the Stuka. Mind you the Stuka served on after it was withdrawn from front-line duties in BOB as well. It was never sent into the front line action again, though. Last significant front line action of the CR.42 took place as late as October 27th '42 during the Battle of El Alamein.

Once again, complete nonsense. Stuka saw heavy use almost throughout the WWII in Europe.

Detachment Kuhlmey is a good example of that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detachment_Kuhlmey


Operational Stuka during the summer of '44 in Immola, Finland. They bombed Soviet concentrations during Stalin 4th offensive on the Karelian Isthmus.

[Stoney]

Stoney, I also have to disagree with your assessment of why folks ask for it. You seem to be under the impression folks only ask for it because they think it's uber.

Krusty, I'm purposefully trying to exclude folks such as yourself and some of the others, from my general statements.  That being said, go back and read some of the first dozen or so posts in this thread, combined with Jolly's propensity to spam the wishlist with gadget planes in general, and I hope you understand the context of my argument.

And the CR42 was one of the most important R.A. aircraft with respect to its history in aerial combat.

[Krusty]

Wmaker: I think you know my intent but I'll clarify: anywhere the stuka had to fight its way through enemy lines to deliver its payload. The wide open, gap-filled front on the Soviet battlefronts allowed to to get in and drop unopposed many times. It clearly "served" through til the closing years of the war, but at reduced capabilities and with zero life expectancy in the face of any enemy air cover. Bf109s and Fw190s replaced it as soon as they could. The fighter bomber was at least able to defend itself if attacked, whereas the stuka could not. You see the same shift on the allied side as well.

Also your quote there is a bit exaggerated. Production stopped well before that. What they did was have a trickle coming off the production lines for exports and then in 1943 they made a special "night harrassment" version that was just a psychological warfare "pest" plane -- and only 150 of those were made. Hardly "remained in production til 1943" as most production phased out before the war, and the remainder of the wartime production stopped as quickly as the C200 and G.50 could be started -- in 1941 and early 1942.

Stoney: Fair enough on your first part. Wrong on your last line. No more the "most important R.A." plane than the Jenny was the most important USN plane. Most numeric, but mostly prewar. Mostly unused. Mostly a trainer. You have to consider that a couple thousand planes is a small amount by most air force standards. During WW2 the most produced plane was the C.202, with 1700 built. You combine both C200 adn G.50 and it still outnumbers both of them. In that regard we have the most important war-time Italian plane (going by numbers alone). There are still holes, oh yes indeed. We need to round out the earlier planeset a lot. Sadly, the Cr.42 is about as important to the cause as the Gloster Gladiator is to the RAF. Am I against the plane? Not just by itself. Am I against the claim it was an important plane in the fight against the enemy? Very much so yes.

[Stoney]

...mostly prewar. Mostly unused. Mostly a trainer...

No, I meant in combat.  Surely someone has a reference that shows which aircraft in the R.A. got kills so we could see its relative worth?

[jolly22]

Its not that I don't want to see it added.  I think in an ideal world, every WWII era aircraft would be represented in-game.  What I am critical about is the idea that this aircraft is significant enough to add to a limited planeset.  It would, in my opinion, have marginally better performance than a C205--maybe.  Given the empty weight of the 205 and G55 being practically the same, I'd opine that the G55 would probably wind up having equal to worse performance, once all that extra armament is added.  In my opinion, people argue to have this plane added merely because they've heard its supposed to be some sort of uber 109 or something, with more guns.  In fact, by the time it was rolling off the factory, it was already approaching obsolescence compared to its contemporary peers.

Finally, if we accept that HTC has a limited amount of resources for developing new aircraft for the game, I'd argue that this aircraft, based on its significance during the war, would not even be in the top 20 aircraft remaining to add to the game.

It seems to me that your calling the 205 not a good plane? I've seen the that thing absolutley destroy plenty of people.  PLUS, im not saying it should be added JUST because of the stats, but also because of diversity.

[Wmaker]

Wmaker: I think you know my intent but I'll clarify: anywhere the stuka had to fight its way through enemy lines to deliver its payload. The wide open, gap-filled front on the Soviet battlefronts allowed to to get in and drop unopposed many times.

I suggest you do some reading about Stalin's Fourth Strategic offensive and especially the use of VVS during it.

Also your quote there is a bit exaggerated. Production stopped well before that. What they did was have a trickle coming off the production lines for exports and then in 1943 they made a special "night harrassment" version that was just a psychological warfare "pest" plane -- and only 150 of those were made. Hardly "remained in production til 1943" as most production phased out before the war, and the remainder of the wartime production stopped as quickly as the C200 and G.50 could be started -- in 1941 and early 1942.

Like I said it was produced till 1943. And it is totally false to say that most of the production was phased out before the war. Here's a table on CR.42 production from Ali d'Italia CR.42-book:

As can be seen, bulk of CR.42s were produced after Italy declared war on France and Britain on 10th of June 1940. On that date, R.A had 300 CR.42's which was half of the total strenght of its fighter units.
Sources: Ali d'Italia CR.42-book and Osprey's CR.42 Aces of the World War 2.

No more the "most important R.A." plane than the Jenny was the most important USN plane. Most numeric, but mostly prewar. Mostly unused. Mostly a trainer.

As the above shows...like I said before this is complete nonsense. Once again, unfortunately for the Italian fighter pilots, CR.42 was very much a frontline fighter when Italy went into war. So much so that half of Italy's fighter strenght was comprised of CR.42s.

[MORAY37]

Again, debatable in 1943, not later. It was already matched by the C.205. You forget it was not a fast airframe. The 205 was faster than it already, and out before it as well.

The type was slow, it wasn't good at altitudes where allied fighters were escorting allied bombers.

While it was planned ahead to try the DB603, this would likely never have happened. They also "planned" the DB603 in a lot of things. That did not make the engine show up any sooner. Even the Me410 was planned to have the DB603, but never did, not even in 1944. The Italians showed a lack of infrastructure to produce their own engines quickly enough. Look how long it took to get the DB601 clone up and running!

It (the G.55) could manuver better than a 190. However it wasn't fast or high enough to take the fight where the 190 and 109 were going.


As it stood, as a production model that saw combat, it was nothing great and nowhere uber. It is a sweet ride, though. I would like to see it.

#1.  The DB603 was mated with at least 3 G.55 airframes and flown.  Top speed was 427 mph level at 20K.  So you're wrong there, it did happen.  It was called the G.56 among the Luftwaffe.

#2.  The G.55 I Centauro had a top speed at around 20K of 391 mph. The 190D9 was topping out at 426 mph at 19K, so relatively comparable, with the aforementioned better maneuverability to the G.55. Also the Germans tested it against the C.205, and found that it had much better performance at altitude than that airframe.  You can easily look up the results on multiple sites.  This is why they voted to produce the G.55 in Germany, though the war turned and they reversed that decision in order to produce 109's at a higher rate, since the G.55 took 3X longer to machine.

#3. The Me410 did see DB603 engines.  

[moot]

It's the 603G that never happened.

[Selino631]

wow, why did someone have to bring this thread back to life

[MORAY37]

wow, why did someone have to bring this thread back to life

Just so you would have the opportunity to say something stupid like that

[Wmaker]

Two G.56 prototypes were indeed built.