Mcnamara

[JB88]

sort of surprised that noone has posted about his passing.

certainly a character worth noting.

thoughts?

[sirvlad]

who? 

[JB88]

who? 

uhhhh....

robert mcnamara.  secretary of defense to kennedy and johnson.

architect of the vietnam war.

hello?

[Motherland]

I hadn't seen anywhere that he had died. Weird.

[JB88]

yep.  93 years old.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8136595.stm

it was headlining this morning, but got overwhelmed by the micheal jackson circus/debacle.

[eagl]

This has an interesting writeup.  The discussion of the Vietnam war is completely one-sided, but it mirrors McNamara's viewpoint.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/us/07mcnamara.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp

He brought an analytical approach to everything in the DoD at a time where the inmates were running the asylum.  In my opinion he was in large part responsible for the current highly disciplined state of the military where civilian control of all things military is absolutely not questioned.  That may be debatable since the military had a strong tradition of civilian control before he took over managing the military, but he really changed almost everything about how the military was run as far as ensuring every dollar spent was the result of at least an attempt at rigorous analysis of costs, benefits, and requirements that could be stated more clearly than "yea we outta have some of dat".

[Die Hard]

I know a couple of guys that would like to take a leak on his grave, but I'm not one of them.

<S> Robert McNamara.

[bj229r]

People like him were the ones who ordered SAM sites 'under construction' to be off limits to F105's as they flew over them every day on the way to the useless targets that Mcnamara and his ilk in DC had picked to bomb that day....People like him were the ones that ordered certain areas off limits to overflight (they wanted to fight a 'nice' war) so that a real target NEAR one of afore-mentioned areas had VERY few routes of ingress and egress, sealing the fates of many pilots, and the NVA couldn't believe their luck at having such idiots running the war on the other side

[Die Hard]

It's more complicated than that though. McNamara wasn't trying to defeat the North Vietnamese, only protect the South. Trying to defeat the North would inevitably have drawn the Chinese and Russians directly into the conflict, and the South simply wasn't worth starting WWIII over. Many mistakes were made and decisions that with hindsight seem idiotic, but that's no different that any other war. It was a lose-lose situation where losing the war meant giving in to communism and winning meant quite possibly starting WWIII. So the only viable alternative was enforcing a stalemate, but with the peace movement back home and diminishing public support, America was not up to the task of enduring such a stalemate. So in the end we gave in to communism.

[33Vortex]

I think you should watch his film 'Fog of War'. He certainly made a lot of mistakes, and are admitting that in the film without going into specifics, but he tried to do what he believed was right. Gotta give him credit for that.

[Wolfala]

That is a haunted man. Hope he finds peace.

[Stoney]

People like him were the ones who ordered SAM sites 'under construction' to be off limits to F105's as they flew over them every day on the way to the useless targets that Mcnamara and his ilk in DC had picked to bomb that day....People like him were the ones that ordered certain areas off limits to overflight (they wanted to fight a 'nice' war) so that a real target NEAR one of afore-mentioned areas had VERY few routes of ingress and egress, sealing the fates of many pilots, and the NVA couldn't believe their luck at having such idiots running the war on the other side

As much as I detest his management of the war and the concept of his "100,000" program, this isn't true.  The selectivity of targets was a political one that resulted from Johnson's meddling.  McNamara was merely responsible for passing those orders along.  Don't forget that he was one of the USAAF targeting gurus during WWII that designated 8th AF's daily bombing targets.  The man knew everything there was to know about strategic bombing as he had been one of those that crafted it during WWII.  

I think Eagle's observation may be most astute.  JFK appointed him purposefully to limit the power of guys like LeMay and the rest of the Chiefs whom JFK had grown to distrust.  Between his ability to minimize their influence going forward and his desire to apply analytical cost-benefit analyses for everything, he certainly ushered in a new era in the management of DoD and the role of Sec of Def.  I believe his impact is most evident in the actions of his successor, Donald Rumsfeld, who ran DoD both the first and second time in a similar manner, for better or worse.

Regardless, it is sad to see the passing of a brilliant man who obviously spent the remainder of his life after the war frustrated and bitter that he couldn't "fix" Vietnam or achieve the success that he had grown accustomed to.  Its apparent to me that he is a very good example for anyone who lets their ego take them to Washington D.C. instead of travelling there reluctantly, with humility and a sense of service.

[Shuffler]

There are a lot of good men in the ground because they were sent into harms way with their hands tied. Anyone contributing to that does not warrant any respect in my book. Despite what they may have achieved earlier in life.

[Die Hard]

All soldiers are sent into harms way with their hands tied. It's just a question of how much rope is used.

[Patches1]

See Rule #14