Author Topic: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson  (Read 7333 times)

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2009, 09:52:17 AM »
Both FW and Spit have the same amount of wash-out at wingtip. In Spit the angle change is divided evenly across the length of the wing, whereas in FW the angle changes on the last 20% of the wing length. I don't know which is better.
There are many factors beyond the washout as the wings are very different.  With some wings, the airfoil section (the profile, not just the relative proportions or angle of incidence) changes from the root to the tip usually to give an elliptical lift profile (this is true even if the wing isn't physically elliptical as with the Spit).  This impacts critical AOA at different parts of the wing and the washout is chosen to compensate for it.  A key factor here though is the sensitivity to aileron rigging.  When properly rigged, the accounts indicate a desireable stall progression from the root to tip.  This suggests that conversely improper rigging is causing the tip to stall first which would lead me to believe that the wingtip stall margin is pretty small.
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Offline NaughtyN

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2009, 12:08:29 PM »
Quote
NaughtyN
Is that book you mentioned the actual maintenance manual for the plane?Just curious if it is a book I can purchase.It sounds like something I may be interested in.

The information is in the real FW190 Handbook. I have a copy of it in my archive. Its for the A8. It should also be available via ebay or try it here www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de

The information about the stallwarning is not from it, the handbook contains the informations about the maintain and ajust them and how important that is from good control and flight characteristics.

Quote
On another subject, I find the various descriptions of the 190's stall warning interesting.  The comment that when the ailerons are properly rigged the 190 gives good stall warning is significant. It seems to indicate that the 190's stall may have a tendency to begin at the wingtip vice the wingroot unless the ailerons are exactly right.  This would not be a good thing as field conditions and airframe stresses would make proper rigging difficult to maintain and therefore, the average pilot would be forced to deal with poor stall warning and abrupt stall characteristics.

That was acutally the case. The arupt stall happened because of one wingtip stall and suddenly drop, it was due to wingtwist under load if i remember right. The stall could be felt in the control colum in the case that the ailerons were correctly ajusted. Improper ajusted or badly maintained ailerons would cause forces in the control columns so that the feel was lost.
A pilot also needed some experience on the FW190 to get that feel, so your statement that the average, inexperienced or badly trained pilot had to deal with sharp accelerated stall characteristics is right.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2009, 02:38:14 PM »
It was easy to adjust the ailerons on the Fw 190s. Unlike most other WWII fighters which used pulleys, wires and bell cranks to transfer control input to the control surfaces, the 190 used a linked push-rod system. It could easily be fine tuned and there was little or no play in the controls. Now this issue is further complicated by the fact the Fw 190 had several different ailerons which could be mounted. Each type delivered different performance envelopes and would be used by the pilots to tune their performance to the most likely combat conditions they would encounter. Unlike in the allied air services there was a high degree of official customization available to Luftwaffe fighter pilots; various propellers, gun packages, ammunition, control surfaces, instrumentation, and probably a good deal of unofficial mods as well. Galland even had a cigar lighter installed in the cockpit of his 109. Makes it difficult to determine exactly what the typical performance of a German fighter was.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:42:59 PM by Die Hard »
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2009, 06:35:59 PM »
Yes I can see a LW pilot saying I want 'aileron B' for my 190 in 1942.

What I fine interesting about the 190s stall was no matter which direction the a/c was turning the a/c always flipped in the same direction.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2009, 10:04:06 PM »
It was easy to adjust the ailerons on the Fw 190s. Unlike most other WWII fighters which used pulleys, wires and bell cranks to transfer control input to the control surfaces, the 190 used a linked push-rod system. It could easily be fine tuned and there was little or no play in the controls. Now this issue is further complicated by the fact the Fw 190 had several different ailerons which could be mounted. Each type delivered different performance envelopes and would be used by the pilots to tune their performance to the most likely combat conditions they would encounter. Unlike in the allied air services there was a high degree of official customization available to Luftwaffe fighter pilots; various propellers, gun packages, ammunition, control surfaces, instrumentation, and probably a good deal of unofficial mods as well. Galland even had a cigar lighter installed in the cockpit of his 109. Makes it difficult to determine exactly what the typical performance of a German fighter was.

Not particularly accurate in regards to the comment about Allied planes and pilots.  I'm sure it was universal to any air force where pilots did things to try and get more performance out of their birds whether it be removing mgs, changing exhaust stacks, waxing, removing paint etc.  5th AF in the Pacific had specific mods they asked for before accepting different aircraft.  You can find different unit wide mods in the 8th AF.  It goes on and on.

I can give you example after example of this done in RAF and USAAF units.
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Offline Gaston

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2009, 01:15:49 AM »
   Yes that is true Milo, but it CHANGED sides when the aircraft was in a flaps-down landing configuration.

   With the flaps up, the LEFT wing dropped with little warning, which then prevented the weaker right wing; ie; the higher, outside-of-the-turn wing, from "flicking down outside" in left turns; this thus gave a better turn radius to the LEFT, flaps up.

   With the flaps down it was the opposite; the RIGHT wing dropped down equally hard, but this time with significant warning. This could have been due to the gear being out, but I would think it is more likely the flap down position was the main culprit.(See the Eric Brown stall descriptions)

   Given the lesser engine reserve power at higher speeds, making efficient speed-retaining turns at high speeds would not allow the flaps to be deployed for very long, so above say 250 MPH IAS, I would say the FW-190A turned poorly, but significantly better to the LEFT, flaps up.

   Below 250 MPH IAS, the reserve engine power left for acceleration was greater, so the extra drag of flaps-down was acceptable, thus the FW-190A was especially competitive in RIGHT turns at these speeds, but the right/left difference seems less pronounced than at high speed... This flaps-down for low speed only is based on an actual FW-190A-8 Western Front ace's descriptions. (He also described deliberately, and successfully, using low-speed turn-fighting against p-51Ds)

   The achievable tightness in 190A low-speed turns depended on at least four different basic 190A configurations; aileron chord types; short, medium, long. The presence or absence of the weighty outboard Mg 151s made a big difference from the A-6 up. The A-8's wide blade wood prop represented one of the biggest advance, and very likely made late A-8s and A-9s competitive at low speed turning with Spitfire IXs, or at least Mk XIVs...

   Finally, a significant advance was the extra power of the A-8, when 1.58 ATA became standard.

   It could be short chord ailerons improved turn performance at higher speeds by allowing a better high speed "stall catch". I still think the FW-190A at high level speeds could not turn with most allied fighters, and did worse than the Me-109G...

   If you pit a 190A-6 with say 1.42 ATA, four cannons, narrow chord ailerons and a narrow metal prop, against an early Spitfire Mk IX, the result will probably be a significant gain by the Mk IX in low speed turning. (Note that Johnny Johnson says early 190As were better turning than the 109F! Probably at low speeds only, and Gunther Rall for his part has them pegged as very, very close. Note Rall did not like the 109G, which might have completed a larger circle faster, so the closeness he mentions is likely regarding the F...)

   If, on the other hand, you pit a 190A-8 with 1.58 ATA, two cannons, long chord ailerons AND a broad-blade wood prop, I wouldn't be surprised if even a Spitfire Mk IX at +25lbs had a hard time matching low-speed turns with it... At high speeds the Spitfire IX turning superiority would be in evidence, especially in right turns, because the FW-190A would need to keep its flaps up...

   This shows the wide range of possible conflicting anecdotes. However, the notion that the FW-190A can do prolonged turns well at high speeds, especially to the right, is not backed up by anecdotal evidence I have read in U.S. combat reports, except one probably involving speeds starting near 500 MPH at low altitude in a left turn, and even then the P-47D could keep inside the turn. It seems probable that above 400 MPH turn disparities narrow down between many types;
                     http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/353-field-22april44.jpg

   I think it is very clear from the Johnny Johnson article that the situation in his Spitfire Mk V was getting progressively worse in continuous turning at slow speed against a FW-190A. The "greying out" reference rather than "blacking out" indicates lower rather than higher speeds, as at very high speed you can at least start with a brief black-out... "It was only a matter of time" he said, before diving towards friendly flak. His description of the superiority of the Spitfire Mk IX is also very plausible, as the Mk IX would be superior in turns to early 190As at both high and low speeds. It is even possible the better high speed turn and climbing of the Me-109G made it more suited to fighting the Spitfire IX... (The 109G retained some superiority in roll, dive acceleration and zooms compared to the Spit IX; unlike 190As tales of woes, Gustav pilots of JG 52 in Italy did not seem to fear the Mk IX as much as American types...) The J. Johnson quote "The 190 seems faster in a zoom climb than the 109" sounds highly unlikely to me, and could indicate such maneuvers were undertaken in the 190A ONLY with the advantage of high speed, exactly as the Russians describe here;

               http://www.ww2f.com/russia-war/21828-russian-combat-experiences-fw-190-a.html

   Note, zoom issue excepted, the striking similitude of opinion with the J. Johnson article.

   Gaston.

   P.S. For those who missed this P-47D vs FW-190A report;

                http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3950/pag20pl.jpg

         Note that in "On Special Missions; Kg 200", it is clearly stated that German tests of a captured needle-prop P-47D led to the conclusion that it "out-turns the Me-109G".

         I would moderate that by saying it would not amount to any kind of large margin at lower speeds or right turns, and even less in climbing right turns... Note also that the later bubbletop P-47D is clearly not as good as the razorback in turning, for reasons unknown to me... I think it could be for more reasons than just the extra 1000 pounds of weight I heard separated them.

        G.

Offline Gaston

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2009, 01:19:39 AM »

   I'll try this P-47/190 link again...;

    http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3950/pag20pl.jpg

    Gaston.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2009, 01:44:49 AM »
Not particularly accurate in regards to the comment about Allied planes and pilots.  I'm sure it was universal to any air force where pilots did things to try and get more performance out of their birds whether it be removing mgs, changing exhaust stacks, waxing, removing paint etc.  5th AF in the Pacific had specific mods they asked for before accepting different aircraft.  You can find different unit wide mods in the 8th AF.  It goes on and on.

I can give you example after example of this done in RAF and USAAF units.

Unlike in the allied air services there was a high degree of official customization available to Luftwaffe fighter pilots. It was an individual choice in the Luftwaffe and it wasn't unusual for a squadron to field several different models of aircraft and a mixture of modifications. In particular in the staff squadrons of German fighter wings.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2009, 07:33:30 AM »
I recall RAF pilot accounts of mixing in with 190's where maybe one was a long nosed one. As well as gaggles of 109's and 190's together.
Galland didn't just have a cigar lighter, he had a different gun package on his 109F. Or F's perhaps, since he got shot down in 1941. (?)
Not unique to the LW though, as early as in the BoB the RAF was upgrading various items, so a squadron would not necessarily field identical aircraft. Before the BoB that also included the props (Rotol), later on this included different spinners, exhaust stubs etc etc.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2009, 10:46:12 AM »
However, they were not the pilot's prerogative, but a matter of standard squadron equipment. Perhaps ironic when considering the regime they fought for, the Luftwaffe was big on individuality and personal achievement. The Allies by comparison were much more regimented; unit above the individual, squadron above pilot. While the Germans decorated their pilots and gave them leave based on personal achievement, any form of personal glorification was frowned upon in the RAF. RAF pilots would celebrate their fifth victory and "ace" status with a quiet beer in the O'Club. The USAAF and USN pilots were a bit more competitive amongst themselves, but unit cohesion and performance as a team were nevertheless more important. In the Luftwaffe there were instances were whole squadrons would just protect their leading "eksperten" as he, alone, attacked and racked up kills. A whole squadron reduced to one attacking aircraft with a dozen "wingmen"; not a very efficient way to fight a war. The Germans really saw their fighter pilots as modern knights, and just like the knights of old they had a lot of leeway in how they equipped themselves for battle.

Here's probably the biggest "individualist" pilot of the whole war:

« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 10:49:55 AM by Die Hard »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Angus

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2009, 01:17:01 PM »
A stellar example of an attacking individual with lots of wingmen would apply to Marseilles  :t However, and after all, the LW was the one who introduced the standard tactics still used today.

Good picture of "Dolfo" there BTW.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline pipz

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2009, 01:30:20 PM »
Galland didn't just have a cigar lighter, he had a different gun package on his 109F. Or F's perhaps, since he got shot down in 1941. (?)

From what I have read those 109s were test aircraft from the factory.The one with the MG131 in the cowl is said to be a F-4/U1,The one with the guns in the wings is said to be a F-6/U.It may have orignaly had MG17's in the wings but on Gallands plane they were replaced with MG/FF.For one reason or another they never went into full production.

Pipz




« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 01:32:18 PM by pipz »
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2009, 04:38:19 PM »
This shows the wide range of possible conflicting anecdotes. However, the notion that the FW-190A can do prolonged turns well at high speeds, especially to the right, is not backed up by anecdotal evidence I have read in U.S. combat reports, except one probably involving speeds starting near 500 MPH at low altitude in a left turn, and even then the P-47D could keep inside the turn. It seems probable that above 400 MPH turn disparities narrow down between many types;

By the time the US got involved a lot of the good LW pilots had disappeared. So a jug pilot in 44 was more likely to encounter 'newbies' who didn't know how or weren't taught the limits of their rides with very short training.

In AH the 190A5 is a very underrated platform but a reasonable pilot can make this bird dance and it can give the average spitfire pilot a hard time in the right hands.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2009, 05:53:53 PM »
Fw 190A-7 turning inside and scoring hits on a P-47D turning hard enough to create wing-tip vapor trails.

Timecode 6:08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqjs5NzKSxg
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Offline thrila

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2009, 06:40:58 PM »
Spot the HO on the p51 at around the 7:50 mark. :)

I'm currently reading a gift from SF3 called 'Spitfire On My Tail' by Ulrich Steinhilper.  I'm only about halfway through and he has been very critical of the luftwaffe so far.  It's a real insight into the disputes between the commanders, veterans, officers and NCO's of the Luftwaffe.
"Willy's gone and made another,
Something like it's elder brother-
Wing tips rounded, spinner's bigger.
Unbraced tailplane ends it's figure.
One-O-nine F is it's name-
F is for futile, not for fame."