Author Topic: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson  (Read 7335 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2009, 07:39:19 PM »
By the time the US got involved a lot of the good LW pilots had disappeared. So a jug pilot in 44 was more likely to encounter 'newbies' who didn't know how or weren't taught the limits of their rides with very short training.

In AH the 190A5 is a very underrated platform but a reasonable pilot can make this bird dance and it can give the average spitfire pilot a hard time in the right hands.
How many experienced pilots did the USAAF have. Sure they might have had a flight time advantage but they didn't have combat time. There was still quality LW pilots around in the first half of 1944.

A good book that is online is 'Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe, 1933-1945', Williamson Murray

http://aupress.maxwell.af.mil/catalog/books/Murray_B12.htm

Offline NaughtyN

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2009, 01:18:13 AM »
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Each type delivered different performance envelopes and would be used by the pilots to tune their performance to the most likely combat conditions they would encounter. Unlike in the allied air services there was a high degree of official customization available to Luftwaffe fighter pilots; various propellers, gun packages, ammunition, control surfaces, instrumentation, and probably a good deal of unofficial mods as well. Galland even had a cigar lighter installed in the cockpit of his 109. Makes it difficult to determine exactly what the typical performance of a German fighter was.

Hello Die Hard,

i would really like to see a source for this. I study the FW190 and its operations now for more than 10 years and there was no large degree of customization in the LW. Not more than in the Allied airforces. Only some very few pilots with a very high reputation (i.e. Galland) could get customizations. Normally a LW pilot had to take the plane he got assigned too, without any customization allowed.

The FW190 handbook clearly states that the three different ailerons typs where created during the ongoing development of the FW190, they were not designed to met different "mission envelopes". No single FW190 book or document i own anywhere states different aileron performance or pilot choice which types to use. In mine (from June 1944) it is also noted that the two older types where no longer in production and will be subsequently replaced by the third type. The handbook also says nothing about differences in performance between those three types, but notes that on one plane, only ailerons of the same type are allowed.

All the best

Naudet



Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2009, 06:23:20 AM »
Naudet, I knew there had to be something fishy about the aileron interchangeability for the 190. I could never understand why the improved aileron would be replaced by an older version

Thanks for posting. :aok

I have also heard stories that the auxiliary fuel tank would be removed/installed depending on what mission the 190 was to partake in. Have you heard of this being done?

Offline NaughtyN

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2009, 07:29:14 AM »
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I knew there had to be something fishy about the aileron interchangeability for the 190. I could never understand why the improved aileron would be replaced by an older version

The handbook doesn't note any difference in performance between those three types. I just guess the later ones incooporated some improvements so the aileron "feel" became even better than it already was. With all three types the aileron area and deflection stayed the same, so rolling performance will - if at all - only vary very slightly.

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I have also heard stories that the auxiliary fuel tank would be removed/installed depending on what mission the 190 was to partake in. Have you heard of this being done?

Not for the D9 for sure. All D9 where delivered with that auxiliary fuel tank or the MW50 tank in the same place.

A-8 and A-9 where to my knowledge (but i don't have researched the A-Model in the same dept as the D9) delivered with and without the auxiliary tank or a GM-1 tank, but i didn't read of that tank being removed or added between missions.

Althought it was not really difficult for a good Staffel-workshop to add or remove it, the procedure is still more time intensive and more complex than to hang a droptank to the ETC rack. Additionally if that tank was installed, it was necessary to move the ETC rack forward to keep the CG within the limits. It doesn't seem very "economical".



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How many experienced pilots did the USAAF have. Sure they might have had a flight time advantage but they didn't have combat time. There was still quality LW pilots around in the first half of 1944.

Milo, a flight time advantage and especially "time on combat type" is very important and here the USAAF training had a significiant and ever increasing advantage to the german flight training from 1943 until the end of the war. Sure there where the old veterans and aces with the good german flight training from preware till 1940 or even the medicore training from 1941-42 with lots of flight hours, but even they where already in the minority in the first half of 1944, so that 4 out of 5 times an allied pilot encountered a german "flight trainee" instead of a well trained veteran with enough time to fly his plane to the edge.

For me Eric Brown and his flight tests are still the single best source for comparing WW2 planes against each other. Even more so, since i have my own pilot license and know on how many factors, especially human factors plane performance depends. All the anecdotes in the books, all statements of veterans how they came out on top in a certain situation, just show how the pilot-plane-combo performed in that single engagement. On another day, with another guy in the opposing fighter and maybe in a slighty different physical condition (tired, worn out etc.) the outcome might have been the contrary although the same planetypes where involved.   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 07:55:29 AM by NaughtyN »

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2009, 07:46:40 AM »
Yes that would be my take on the Aux tank. The mechanics had more important work to do on the dozen or so 190s in the staffel.

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It doesn't seem very "economical".

Early production A-8s did not come with the aux tank fitted (an option). From Sept 1944 it was a standard fit.

Considering the source of the removal/installing of the aux tank statement, I would say he made another of his numerous erroneous conclusions.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2009, 07:54:58 AM »
Hello Die Hard,

i would really like to see a source for this.

Hello.

My source is a friend of mine who is what I call a 190-phile. He works on White 1, and also worked on Black 3. I'm afraid I can't post a written source for you, but I take his word for it.

http://www.white1foundation.org/
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Angus

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2009, 08:04:30 AM »
Would that be Crumpp ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2009, 08:13:59 AM »
No, that's not his name, and I won't divulge his identity without permission.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline NaughtyN

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2009, 08:27:15 AM »
Ok Die Hard,

i am myself support the White1Foundation and my first though about your source was the same as Angus. And although i appreciate Crumpp for his effort on rebuilding the White 1 and know that he owns an almost invalueable archive off original FW documents, i would call him a little overeager when it comes down to realisticly rate the FW190 performance and what is supported by the documents and what is not. I am now pry to know your source, but will accept if you won't reveal his identity.

But in this case - without intending an offense to you or your source - i will trust my researches and my own archive, where i so far didn't find any informations or even a hind that the three ailerons types had different performance envelopes.

If you ask in this forum, i am sure many folks will tell you that i am a also a 190-phile. And i must admit that years back (must have been around 2001/2002) i had a very strong FW bias. I regulary get a good laugh when rereading my own old postings. For me the most important experience that opened my eyes, was when i started to train and became a (privat) pilot myself. You get a whole new look how to rate plane performance and how difficult it is to pin it down. Actually any published performance number of any plane is a more or less accurate guess and even today everyone is happy if the real performance varies +/- 3% from the published numbers.

Best regards

Naudet

 





Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2009, 08:42:40 AM »
I'm not particularly fond of the 190 though it is an interesting bird, and you'd better consider my post hearsay.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Angus

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2009, 09:28:15 AM »
No, that's not his name, and I won't divulge his identity without permission.

It was his forum name. I have his name and email somewhere (since we have been mailing every now and then). I think he was on that particular project, - that's partly what made me curious, - as well as how it's going.  NP mate.

And Naudet, still fly the 190 in AH? Nice post anyway, and the point of what changes once you fly yourself is nicely put. Don't have a private pilot's license, but I tried various birds. Turns out that my old postings of quite some heat (I also have fun looking at them) are frequently some arguments with people that never flew a little aircraft.

It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline NaughtyN

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2009, 10:37:41 AM »
And Naudet, still fly the 190 in AH? 

Resubbed about 3 month ago, just to fly the 190, cause saddly it is so ugly expensive to rebuild and maintain a real one.  :aok

Offline Angus

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2009, 10:57:31 AM »
Hehe, maybe we can wing one day. Online name is Daimler in my case, although I frequent the Merlin powered rides. Very little time for me before late autumn though.
In the meantime we carry on saving....you for your 190 from the Flugzeugwerke, and me from Australia, Spit Mk 26 :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2009, 12:27:19 PM »
Flugzeugbau you mean. Flugzeugwerke is more 109 ;)
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Gaston

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2009, 12:28:45 PM »
    
    The 3 ailerons were NOT similar in surface dimensions...

    The three different ailerons had three different CHORD dimensions; it was not a matter of improvement; you can differenciate them in some photos by the position of the fixed trim tab; with the trim tab fully inboard, the trailing edge "extends" to be level with the trim tab, therefore increasing the chord by about 40-50 mm or so. (This is beyond the wing trailing edge!)

    With the trim tab at the one-third inboard position, the trim tab sticks out; no extended aileron trailing edge.

    A longer chord aileron meant more aileron authority at low speeds, shorter chord meant less aileron heaviness at high speeds. In late A-8s, the proper 190A tactics against later American fighters made the low speed turning advantage increasingly important, so the long chord was more common.

    The FW-190A-8 Western ace I mentionned went even further and added SPACERS to the aileron hinge, to "artificially" boost the chord even further (and thus increasing the low-speed "stall catching authority"), making the A-8 an even more specialized low-speed dogfighter. This took advantage of the P-47's, and especially of the P-51's, weakness in low-speed turning ("especially" not because of a vast low-speed turning performance difference between those two U.S. fighters, but because the stronger P-47 could afford more head-to-head combat, therefore ignoring speed to keep facing head-to-head into an attack was less productive than with the P-51). Unlike the Japanese, whose less armed and more fragile aircrafts could not effectively counter hit-and-run tactics with a series of head-to-heads runs, the FW-190A was powerful and strong enough to make head-to-heads a losing proposition to U.S. fighters, particularly the P-51.

    So the FW-190A was probably one of the few marginally successful counters that the old dogfighting doctrine found to hit and run tactics, hence the preliminary flap-popping and downthrottling, described by an actual FW-190A-8 Western ace, when facing P-51s... He did not care about "energy fighting", only low speed turn response against multiple opponents...

   The Japanese compared their imported FW-190A-5 to their heavily armed, tight-turning J2M3, but the difference with the FW-190A was that the J2M3 could make viciously hard prolonged turns at higher speeds: One was observed by a witness making high speed turns "more violent than anything I had ever seen in Europe", resulting in the pursuing P-51D losing its tail control surfaces and crashing.

   In comparison, the FW-190A could probably initiate a fairly violent turn at high speed, especially to the left, but it could not sustain it to compete with P-51s or P-47s; it would mush or stall. Again;
                  
           http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3950/pag20pl.jpg

   The Zero Model 52 may not have been able to duplicate the J2M3's high speed turning performance, but its evolution followed the correct path for a late-war low-speed dogfighter: Much longer-ranged cannons, and then seriously increased armament, regardless of the cost to top speed, to exploit its remaining low-speed turning advantage. This would then force the hit-and-run American fighter into a series of head-to-head attacks, where the odds were at least even against the later five-gun A6M5c... Note that the Zero is unique in getting the windshield armoured glass as a standard BEFORE even getting pilot back armor, a clear indication of the perceived combat priority...

   This is not to say the Zero or the FW-190A never used hit-and-run tactics, but in the case of the 190A in particular, these hit-and-run tactics certainly occurred mostly at the higher altitudes to compensate for the 190A's lack of competitive high altitude turn performance. Also, up there the miserable pull-out performance of both the Zero and the 190A mattered less than when fighting low to the ground...

    To characterize the FW-190A as a good hit-and-run fighter is only slightly less ridiculous than for the Zero because of the 190A's high dive speed. Otherwise you could not be further away from its true character... The Me-109G was actually much more versatile than the FW-190A in vertical maneuvers, despite a 50-70 MPH slower top dive speed, but even so it generally had trouble matching U.S. vertical combat performance.

   Remember the Russian evaluation of hundreds of compiled combat reports; "The FW-190A does not like vertical maneuvers"

   An interesting thread here were the cited document takes the superiority of the FW-190A in general turning performance, over the Me-109G when confronting the La-5, as an implied "common knowledge" that is not worthy of any elaboration...

   Only today has this become a "mystery"...;

     http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1121035477    


    Once again, "common knowledge" can be lost, and I hope the increasing mountain of evidence will not be ignored forever...


   Gaston