Author Topic: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson  (Read 7336 times)

Offline Charge

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Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« on: July 07, 2009, 10:31:42 AM »
Over a past few years I have every now and then referred to an article I thought I had lost, its about the turning ability of FW190 and now I finally found it:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4716/jjohnsononfw190.jpg

I'd appreciate if anybody had a better scan of this article.

-C+
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Offline pipz

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 02:58:14 PM »
Thats rite out of his book titled "Wing Leader"


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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 03:13:47 PM »
Johnson was a runner!
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2009, 03:22:25 PM »
Ack-dragger even!
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Offline pipz

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2009, 04:31:37 PM »
And a spit dweeb  :aok


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Offline Scherf

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2009, 05:06:29 PM »
Did he HO?
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2009, 06:05:26 PM »
Spit IX FTW!  :rock

His book, recommended to my by furball a bit back, is next on my list of autobiographies of World War 2 pilots, with Nine Lives by Al Deere next.  :aok

Offline pipz

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2009, 06:31:52 PM »
Spit IX FTW!  :rock

His book, recommended to my by furball a bit back, is next on my list of autobiographies of World War 2 pilots, with Nine Lives by Al Deere next.  :aok

Both are very good books.


Pipz
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2009, 07:14:22 PM »
Does seem like an odd thing. Perhaps Johnson was well above corner speed, and/or could not stand up to as many Gs as the 190 pilot.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2009, 07:19:30 PM »
Did he HO?
Only time he ever got hit was in a HO with a 190.  His Spit IX took a 20mm round to the wing root into the main spar, bent the wing back a bit and caused the Spit to be a write off.  He got a Spit XIV as a replacement, but I don't seem to recall that he liked it as much.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2009, 10:55:53 PM »
Does seem like an odd thing. Perhaps Johnson was well above corner speed, and/or could not stand up to as many Gs as the 190 pilot.

I think it has more to do with how pilots really flew in WWII v. how they fly here.  Every WWII aircraft sim makes the FW 190 out to be a dog of a dogfighter.  Every personal account I've ever read, written by an Allied fighter pilot, says that the FW was a dancer.  I have assumed from this that real people weren't willing to slow down and use flaps the way we do in here.

- oldman

Offline Motherland

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2009, 10:59:19 PM »
The 190 is a monster in Special Events. It's ability to stay fast, change direction quickly, and dispatch the enemy quickly lends itself more to this environment than the MA's.
The 190 is a very maneuverable aircraft, it's just not very good in a flat turn.


Hptm. Heinz Lange of 3./JG51 on the Fw 190 as compared to the Bf 109;

'I first flew the Fw 190 on November 8th 1942 at Vyazma in the Soviet Union. I was absolutely thrilled. I flew every fighter version of it employed on the Eastern Front. Because of it's smaller fuselage, visibility was somewhat better out of the Bf 109. I believe the Focke Wulf was more maneuverable than the Messerschmitt- although the latter could make a tighter horizontal turn, if you mastered the Fw 190 you could pull a lot of Gs and do just about as well. In terms of control force and feel, the 109 was heavier on the stick. In the Fw 190 aerobatics were a pleasure!'
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 11:10:15 PM by Motherland »

Offline Urchin

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 04:18:34 AM »
I think it has more to do with how pilots really flew in WWII v. how they fly here.  Every WWII aircraft sim makes the FW 190 out to be a dog of a dogfighter.  Every personal account I've ever read, written by an Allied fighter pilot, says that the FW was a dancer.  I have assumed from this that real people weren't willing to slow down and use flaps the way we do in here.

- oldman

The A5 used to be a pretty fair knife fighter in AH.  Took a hit with the transition to AH2, and got nuetered with the flaps patch that turned the F4U's into superplanes.

Offline Kweassa

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 05:40:11 AM »
Quote
I think it has more to do with how pilots really flew in WWII v. how they fly here.  Every WWII aircraft sim makes the FW 190 out to be a dog of a dogfighter.  Every personal account I've ever read, written by an Allied fighter pilot, says that the FW was a dancer.  I have assumed from this that real people weren't willing to slow down and use flaps the way we do in here.

That's my opinion as well.

 Judging from what is described by many anecdotes - not just those coming from the best of pilots - it seems many of the real life factors (which cannot be adequately simulated within the boundaries of a mere game) acted out as quite a bit of hinderance which might have kept the pilots from achieving the theoretical maximum performance of their aircraft.

 Some autobiographies coming from the expert pilots describe pulling so close to the edge of stall that their aircraft shivered and shook, whilst at the same time, other anecdotes originating from the average pilots seem to describe a general disdain towards having to push their aircraft towards dangerous grounds, or having to enter such a situation which warrants it in the first place.
 
 Stories of some elite squadrons portray a cocky band of well trained aces who'd gladly chop throttle, slow their aircraft, and flicker the flap levers and switches to enter a knife fight, whilst other stories emphasize they trained their pilots to play it safe, and keep things simple during dogfights.

 Some anecdotes even seem to suggest that most pilots rarely even adjusted their throttle lever during combat - leave the throttle setting at max. combat power, and then both hands on the control column.

 The guncam footages also show some interesting moments. Taking into consideration that most of the footage is in 1/3rd speed, even when played at a normal real-life speed the evasive maneuvers of the target plane in the films are very simple to the simpilot's eyes. One can only imagine what's going through the pilot's mind in his last moments of the flight, but considering grave circumstances, the type of evasives shown rarely extend further than the simplest of left-right scissoring. It's actually quite difficult to see any kind of attempts at fancy evasives at all.

 Another point might be the difficulty of handling due to aerodynamic forces and physical/psychological factors.

 Some people have posted that it isn't all that difficult to move your head and body around during high G maneuvers, and a loose strap would be all you'd need to have a reasonable six view. However, there seems to be some disparity between looking around at high Gs during a leisure flight, and during combat maneuvering under high mental stress. For whatever reasons, apparently checking 6 wasn't an easy task, which in time came to the development of wingman coverage tactics during the course of the war.

 Also, some people say stronger people can exert forces well over 50lbs on the control column, but it's quite difficult to imagine every pilot in the squadron would be able to continuously pull, push, pull, push, pull, push with maximal force during high speed flight in a single combat. Sure, I might be able to lift up heavy weights, but I'm not sure if I could continuously exert enough force to pick it up, down, up, down, up, down as long as I want. Especially during the excitement of combat with my breath running scant, sweat tickling into my eyes, forehead itching and etc etc..

 According to guncam footages, the most common thing to expect seems to be you latching onto an enemy plane, your initial attack fails, the enemy plane turns left, you turn harder to gain a leadshot angle, the enemy tries a scissor to the right you change directions to follow him, nail a few shots, the target smokes, and the plane either goes down or the pilot bails.

 I'm not sure if any real pilot would really glady try do what we'd do in AH... in which we'd see an enemy while flying at 400mph, enter a steep combat turn, chop throttle, put down flaps, pull a 3~4G turn while tunnel vision sets in and allows only a tiny circle of visibility, the enemy plane scissors to right, you change directions accordingly and pull another 3~4G turn, and your vision would come back briefly and then tunnel again, and then enter a rolling scissors fight with the outside view of the world going round and round and round, your plane shaking and gasping at the edge of the stall as you try to barrely roll again and again, as slowly as possible, trying to go slower and barrely around at a larger radius than the enemy, at which point the combat altitude would drop down and your wingtips might be scratching the dirt.

 Heck, the preferred practice of dive bombing was to fly over the target at a slow speed, invert and split-S downwards to the target and drop, because this method was known to be more accurate, as well as it would relieve the pilot from the dreadful -Gs if he had to push forward the controls to just duck down and enter -G dive.

 ...

 If one takes all of what's mentioned above into consideration, the conclusion seem to support the theory that the aerial combat of WW2 planes rarely involved the 'extremes' of flight.

 I think the FW190s are depicted as reasonable turners in anecdotes, because neither the 190s nor their enemy Spitfires would really get into a serious turn contest during combat. If RAF testings confirm the Spits outturn 190s quite easily, but combat reports say otherwise, then I think the only explanation is that combat pilots don't fly like test pilots.

Offline pipz

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Re: Duel with a FW190 by J. Johnson
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 07:10:10 AM »
I have assumed from this that real people weren't willing to slow down and use flaps the way we do in here.
- oldman

If I remember rite the 190 had a nasty stall habbit and gave no warning it was about to stall which kept guys from flying it hard at slow speeds.
On the other hand the Spitfire would indicate it was about to stall with a shudder.

German pilots were trained for the hit and run high speed fights although there are always exceptions.Marseille was known for slowing his 109 down and droping flaps.
From what I have read the British seem to have had no problem turning theyre spits at slow speed.
Mcguire was killed when his 38 went into a stall while he was turning at slow speed.
Italians were known for dog fighting and supposedly could be seen doing aerobatics in combat.
Japanese planes were purpose built for slow speed fighting.

I guess givin a situation like that you gotta do what ya gotta do although staying fast was probably prefered.


Pipz
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 07:13:16 AM by pipz »
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