A question about the pony

[alskahawk]

I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
 I have spoke with Bob Goebel at lenght about the 109 and he told me their a wash in the turning dept, now at what speed either plane had an advantage at I do not know. He also never faced a 109K .

I've seen this in a couple of combat shows too, where they interview the WW2 pilots. As per real pilots who were there; The turn radius was very close between P51 and the '09Gs. In WW2 the numbers advantage, altitude, and having fresh, well trained pilots all helped the Mustang legacy. In a vacuum, one on one? Who knows. Its a good all around airplane, a plane the Allies needed at the time. Not great just a plane that did what it was supposed too. Its important to remember that the Germans were on the defensive from 1942 on. They had basically lost the war at the end of Barbarossa. The 109 was outdated by the time the US entered the war. All the mods on the 109 were done to save an aging airframe in a lost war. The HO shot, by cannoned aircraft wasn't the big factor in real combat as it is in AH. Real combat pilots then and now understand which end of the plane had the guns. It simply isn't the most advantages way to win a aircombat contest by flying head on into the enemy plane's guns with your guns blazing.

[Strip]

I dont know in the PT the plane set lended itself to the US iron in the headon situation.

[Yeager]

I've seen this in a couple of combat shows too, where they interview the WW2 pilots. As per real pilots who were there; The turn radius was very close between P51 and the '09Gs.

I have always felt that the P51 in AH did not measure up to the historical record as I understand it, but I am no expert and have never flown any genuine P51s to compare with, so I just accept the way the plane behaves in the game and try to work with that.  It is interesting to note that there are a few guys who ride in the 51s in game who do a remarkable job dogfighting close in.  Almost always astonished when I come across one that flys sharp angles at high speed and appear not to lose much (if any) energy.  That aint me.  I employ very wide angles and try to use the plane as a backstabber (or picker....if that suits you).  When it comes to turning with most other combat rides in AH I quickly lose angles and end up diving out or getting waxed......so I stick with the high speed retention use of wide angles regime.  Seems to serve me the best in 51s.

[alskahawk]

 The P 51D is probably my favorite ride, but I think that the game designers were a bit liberal in some of the aspects. And probably not liberal enough with some other planes.
 According to some of the WW2 ace's accounts of close in, stall fighting with 109s the big advantage was not the handling but the speed. The P51 could always count on diving out or getting separation when needed.

 "I dont know in the PT the plane set lended itself to the US iron in the head on situation." ? Not sure what your trying to say there.
 Given the disparate situation the the US (and allies) were in 1941-42 they may have tried to kill at any cost. Remember the Americans, and the flying world paid very little attention to the Japanese aircraft prior to 1941. The Zero was a complete surprise. They really didn't know much about it until they got a flying sample from the Aleutians. So to say they knew that it flamed easily and was of such light construction so they would try a HO would probably not be right. I have not heard or read that the Americans did more head ons on the Pacific than in Europe. The one trait that seems to show up more than anything was the American pilots training and aggressiveness. Another thing to consider is how rigid the Japanese were in their training. Questioning orders was not done. In America we make heroes out of rule breakers. Pappy Boyington for an example.

[Strip]

Lightweight poorly armored IJN planes stood little chance in a headon situation. I have read plenty of stories about USN and USAF jousting in that situation. I mean heck it was even on the History Channel....

 

Strip

[alskahawk]

 Ya cite some examples. Then compare them with the normal attacks.

[Guppy35]

I have always felt that the P51 in AH did not measure up to the historical record as I understand it, but I am no expert and have never flown any genuine P51s to compare with, so I just accept the way the plane behaves in the game and try to work with that.  It is interesting to note that there are a few guys who ride in the 51s in game who do a remarkable job dogfighting close in.  Almost always astonished when I come across one that flys sharp angles at high speed and appear not to lose much (if any) energy.  That aint me.  I employ very wide angles and try to use the plane as a backstabber (or picker....if that suits you).  When it comes to turning with most other combat rides in AH I quickly lose angles and end up diving out or getting waxed......so I stick with the high speed retention use of wide angles regime.  Seems to serve me the best in 51s.

You have to understand that the way the 51 is used in AH isn't anywhere near the way it was used for real.  None of us take off in a 51 with full internal fuel, two 110 gallon DTs and fly a long range mission at high alt escorting bombers.  Remember the altitude the combat was taking place at.  Remember the conditions.  Because we don't really risk anything, we don't fly the same way

Go back to the DGS scenario and the way the 51s were operated along with the other Allied rides the 47 and 38.  It was high alt, long distance flying and choosing combat when it made sense, but knowing you only had one life.  Protect the bombers, kill the fighters.  How we flew in those situations was nothing like we fly in the MA.  The 51s operating in pairs did well but they flew it like their life depended on it.  This applied to the 38 and Jug guys too.

The 51 is a very survivable bird flown to it's strengths and had I not been in a 38 I'd have wanted a 51 as it was the best for the job.

[Strip]

     Every once in a while I will do a long range mission....with full internal and droptanks and fly like someone would probly have back then. Take a P-51B up and I fly 100-150 miles to a high traffic area with the two other sides fighting each other. Often I will cruise at 17,000 for best range (30,000 feet is porked currently) and using realistic throttle settings. Havent found anyone that will tag along to make it really authentic however. This is mostly in midwar and its a very survivable plane when you stay fast and bnz.

Strip

[MjTalon]

I wonder what's the big fuss over the P51, Fly the 38 and be done with it.
 

[Ramon]

I think the best way to be successful in the P51 is to 1.  Decide before you take off that you will land (on the runway) after the sortie, kills or no kills. (choose your battles accordingly)  2.  Learn to recognize when you have the advantage as well as the ability to recognize the split second you lose the advantage (remember aggressive is the best posture).  3. Make your decisions fast and stick with them (evaluate them objectively after the flight and remember what and why you did something wrong).  4.  Do not attack bombers from their six (I still forget this one sometimes).  5.  The head on attack is at best a 50/50 deal and those odds are not good enough.  6.  De-tune channel 200 because the world is a critic and some are just mean(remember, you pay the 14.95 for the cartoon airplane).   7.  When you get the opponent into your sights...don't forget to pull the trigger!  If you can work your opponent's relative E down you always have a good chance.  I love to fly the P51D and IMHO it is the best, it definitely compensates for my flawed flying technique.

[R 105]

As far as I am concerned the P-51 may be the best plane in the game. It is all I fly. I can go to a large air field and kill all 4 ords and fly away.
It will out run just about any thing except a very few planes. The range in excellent and it will turn with flaps pretty well. It took a long time flying it to get good with it. It is not a good plane to start out in when you are new. It is however under modeled some what. The P-51s true performance is better then HT has it in the game. Just like the P-38 is over modeled.

R-105

[Steve]

I have always felt that the P51 in AH did not measure up to the historical record as I understand it,

You are probably right but consider this: A 51 with all the performance it has now, and it turns as well or better than the 109 planeset. I love the 51 but a plane like that would be unbalancing for the planeset. My 2 cents.   

Learn to recognize when you have the advantage as well as the ability to recognize the split second you lose the advantage

  Then learn to fight from this position and win.   

Do not attack bombers from their six

   This is a widespread myth, unless you are strictly referring to dead 6.

[moot]

You do lose quite a bit of hitting power by coming from behind them.