A question about the pony

[BnZs]

It has a good zoom climb. In a zoom from high-speed a Pony will top out about as high or higher than many birds which have much better steady climb. Some of the real monstrosities will give it trouble if you try to outzoom it Co-E of course, but the fact that the max zooms are similar for a Pony and a Spixteen is pretty amazing, considering the latter's huge weight/power advantage.

The B model is actually all I fly (I'll venture around randomly from time to time, but the B model has my attention currently) and I still have a tough time with 109's.

Also, I've heard that in real life the zoom climb of the Pony wasn't all that bad, however in this game it seems downright awful, why's that?

[Anaxogoras]

In the testing I've done offline, the lighter fighters with good powerloading out-zoom the heavier fighters.  For example, the Spit16 outzooms the P-47D-40, P-38L and F4U-1D.

[BnZs]

Yeah, I've noticed that Anax. From 400 mph on the deck, pulling straight up and hitting shift-x, I get about 6K feet and some change regained before stall for almost everything. Considering how much better a spixteen climbs than a Jug, the zoom climb must be doing *something* for you...

[SectorNine50]

    The only time I have problems with a 109 family is when its the 109K4. You are as good as dead if the K4 plays to its strengths. Most dont know the plane very well but watch out if they do. The other 109's can be trouble if you get into a single plane fight. Pure vertical and flat turn he has the advantage so keep it 3D. You have to work flaps like mad and use throttle to pull the plane around. Usually my flaps never stay in more than one position for more than 2-3 seconds. One thing you can never EVER do is flat turn a Poni so use yoyo's or similar manuevers. Stop by the DA and I will show you how I fight 109s...

<S>

Sounds good, if I catch ya online I'll be sure to take a lesson or two!

[B4Buster]

We all know the Pony is a great plane, but what makes it so great? It has great guns, and great speed, but what happens when you get some one on your tail that can match your speed? Do you call for help? Do you run the the field ack? Or do you actually try and out manuver them? It seems every time I try, it doesn't work very well. Any tips?

Sorry, I know this thread is a little old but I just saw it.
If you get someone on your tail that's a decent stick, you're don for, nothing you can do unless you have a friendly nearby or ack to hug

[BnZs]

Sorry, I know this thread is a little old but I just saw it.
If you get someone on your tail that's a decent stick, you're don for, nothing you can do unless you have a friendly nearby or ack to hug

Experience shows this is not always the case. Hell, it is not always EASY to get a timely kill on a bandit who is determined to jink and dodge in any way possible when flying an airplane of equal or superior maneuverability.

On the contrary, there are any number of lower-wing loaded planes that can make themselves a nearly impossible target for a Pony or whatever worse turning plane if they keep their speeds in the right range. That forces the Pony to predict where they are going to fly and set up for a snap-shot, which isn't easy, and can be dodged by a well time out-of-plane jink. Or, often enough, when the Pony (or any other plane with a dramatic wingloading disadvantage) cuts across the circle to put his nose lead for a shot, the better turning plane will have the ability to put it's nose back on, thus forcing a non-productive nose-to-nose pass.

[awrabbit]

/O

Colombo ! been flying much?


Rabbit <?>

[BigPlay]

The 190D has an initial climb rate of over 4,000fpm and remains a front-runner in climb rate up to 15K. If anything, one would think it's zoom qualities would be superior to a 109s because of greater mass and "density". So yes, it isn't quite the vertical performer the 109G-14 or K is but it outclasses the P-51. The only quality where the P-51 is definitely superior at typical MA alts, and the one that makes the 190 easier to fight, is wing-loading. Of course, this turns out to be important...makes one wonder why the Germans devoted so many resources to 190s when the game demonstrates that the Messerschmidt is obviously far and away superior?   Oh well.




From what I have been told by many 109 drivers (rl) is it was not an easy plane to fly. I was told the 190 was much more forgiving for a new pilot and by wars end that's what the majority of German pilots were.

[SectorNine50]

From what I have been told by many 109 drivers (rl) is it was not an easy plane to fly. I was told the 190 was much more forgiving for a new pilot and by wars end that's what the majority of German pilots were.

The 109 had nasty stall characteristics.  In-game these aren't nearly as apparent thanks to Combat Trim.  Flying the 109 with combat trim disabled is a whole different monster.

[BnZs]

The stiffness of 109 controls at high IAS is another factor. This is much more of a problem in "Il2" than AH, beginning to be felt at 280mph. In AH, there is no reduction in elevator effectiveness till over 400mph IAS.

(Oh, and trust me on this one, the designers at Il2 don't *hate* the 109.)

[BigPlay]

No, we do NOT all know that.

In the ETO, it was a long-ranged mediocre maneuvering airplane that could perform with its typical opposition at typical altitudes and in any case run down or out-run 99% of what it ran across.

In AHII MA, it is a very poor turning aircraft that is outperformed by much of it's opposition at typical altitudes and can be out-turned, out-climbed, and out-run by a good number of likely opponents.

 I have met many 51 aces and have become friends with a few. Non of them ever said that the 51 was a good turning plane. Like BnZ said ..... it had it's job and did it well but dogfighting low with the German planes wasn't one of them.

[bongaroo]

You spend your day cruising this board looking for any excuse to make one of your snide little remarks don't you? Seriously, get a life.

Pot.  Meet kettle.   

[MiloMorai]

The 109 had nasty stall characteristics.  In-game these aren't nearly as apparent thanks to Combat Trim.  Flying the 109 with combat trim disabled is a whole different monster.

It does?

[BnZs]

If the slats are working properly, that should in fact gentle the near-stall a good bit by preserving some airflow over the ailerons and thus keeping some roll control into the very high AoA...

Of course, in r/l uneven slat deployment can rear its ugly head.

[BigPlay]

I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
[/quote]

 I have spoke with Bob Goebel at lenght about the 109 and he told me their a wash in the turning dept, now at what speed either plane had an advantage at I do not know. He also never faced a 109K .