Good reason to have a conceal and carry permit......

[Die Hard]

Annoying that I have to repeat myself.

... I'm not saying firing a warning shot is the smart thing to do.

[mechanic]

It's a good topic, i think. Hey Shuffler, i understand that law and agree with the sense of it. Like i keep saying, I'm only discussing the incident at hand and not gun laws.

[Dago]

It's frustrating that some in this thread are trying to make a case that the victim shouldn't have been armed, should have just taken the beating, when they ( the willing victim types) are secure in the knowledge of the results in this case.  Hindsight experts abound, but for the guy about to take a beating, he didn't have any idea if he would survive.  He didn't know if any of his family would suffer injury or death.  Victim mentality escapes me.   Having the nads to protect yourself is a more easily recognizable and understandable concept in my world.


I will state that if I had a gun and I or my family was being attacked, or about to be attacked by a crowd, I would use the gun in defense.

[Toof]

I didn't mean to come off negative or "anti-gun" in my previous posts. I've got XD .45 5" sitting 12 inches in front of me right now...but I only have 3 mags at the moment, so that gives me 40 rounds.

In a 1v50 situation. I've only got myself to protect(and potentially my current roomates). Don't have my CWP yet, but SC is a Castle Law state. We're almost as well off as Texas when it comes to gun laws. This incident in particular kind of comes down to situational awareness too. Did 50+ teens who probably looked like they were up to no good just "sneak up" on him? Maybe they did, I wasn't there. Personally, I'd like to think I would've noticed this large a group of people in time to go inside, fireworks or not.

I'll go re-read the article real fast..."out of nowhere" is a pretty vague statement, I'd assume it happened "fast". I've been shooting for quite awhile, and while I can tear the x ring out of a silhouette at 15 yards....I just can't reload fast enough to drop more than 5-6(on a good day) before, if they didn't scatter, I would be up a creek.

I didn't mean to imply that having a firearm in a self defense scenario, which this case obviously was, is a bad thing. I just think in those kind of overwhelming odds, if he had one and didn't draw, they would've found it, and he'd probably be dead, or someone just got themselves a bright shiny new piece, and they keep beating on him. If he drew it and fired, well....it's pretty much a lose lose situation all around. edit : Well, not lose lose, you may walk out alive, but you just shot someone, and that's always going to change your life.

I agree with everyone who said a criminal is a criminal no matter what the age. Someone comes kicking in my door or breaking glass, I don't care who it is, they aren't here to sell me girl scout cookies. They've got a .45ACP problem on their hands.

I'm as Pro 2A as they come, but 1v50 just doesn't seem like a good situation for anything but an assault rifle.....or maybe a FN 5.7...that'd probably go through a few of em at a time!   

[CAP1]

i still have to wonder though......they're teens.


sure.....you have 50 marines in front of you, and you shoot one of em, you're in a world of poop...........but this is 50 teens. i ask this in all seriousness.........if one of them is shot, would the rest not react with "O^&%$" and run like heck?

 i have no fear of guns....unless they're pointed at me. i've shot them...only once or twice, but i have.......never had one pointed at me, and never want to. i would think that teens would at least be smart enough to know when to run away?

[jimson]

Interesting to consider the hypotheticals, but the only thing we do know is that he was unarmed and he and his family survived.

It certainly could have gone worse, the females could have been gang raped and the entire lot of them brutally slaughtered.

If he had a gun, could the crowd have overpowered him and used his own gun on him? Sure, but that would have required some of them to charge into gunfire. Not something anyone is very likely to do, so isn't it just as likely that some of them would have gotten shot, the rest scattered, chaos ensues and they would have been able to get to a safer strategical area and hold them off until help arrived?

In that case he wouldn't have had the crap beaten out of him.

Then what? would the Sharpton types play the race card?

Maybe, but given that is looks like a clear case of self defense, and possibly racism on the crowds part, they would have been risking ridicule and loss of credibility that might have really backfired on them.

Would it have given gun owners a black eye, and ignited a debate for more gun control?

I doubt it. Given the situation, it more likely would have been publicly touted as the very reason for our 2nd amendment rights.

Would the man be forever consumed by guilt, unable to sleep for having taken the lives of merely rambunctious youths.

Doubtful, considering the fact that only now does he know he was only facing a beating.

At the time he likely would have thought and forever believed he and his family were facing certain death and dismemberment, kill or be killed. I think most people would be able to live with that.

Would he have been prosecuted? Not likely, given the clear cut self defense angle and the folk hero status he would likely attain, I doubt you could find a D.A. anywhere who would touch the case with a ten foot pole.

A side note to mechanic: I am glad that some in the UK agree with or have some admiration for our 2nd amendment rights so a big <S> to you.

In this country at least, a roving gang of teenagers doesn't elicit a lot of warm fuzzy feelings. Shooting a bunch of toddlers would make you the most hated man in your state, but teenage thugs?

Except among the ultra-liberal fascists, you'd probably become the most admired.

[Toof]

I agree 100% with what you said Jimson.
 
It's all kind of objective and hypothetical.

[jimson]

nm

[jimson]

oops

[jimson]

Sorry, I was trying to edit my post and hit the wrong button while being distracted by the wife-aaack, twice.

[Jouster]

well said jimson. took some of what I was going to point out.

mechanic I was going to get mean about how you say you support our gun laws but then really don't.

however, for a brit you really do. as our ultra liberal friends over here in the U.S. are way past you on the guns are bad scale. so good for you for breaking out of the typical european scared of guns mold. it's a start.

The 2A is only about self defense. from our government. according to it, we should have access to the latest available firearms that the regular army soldier carries. not including explosives. We do not thanks to the 1986 law. and the 1968 law for that matter. but we do with what we have.

fortunately that self defense also spills over into criminals. sadly a few major metro areas have taken that right (illegally, if the 2A is upheld, I will add.) from law abiding citizens with obvious traumatic consequences.

On the premise that the U.S. is a free country, which it isn't for some anymore. (slowly we are on the path to european socialism, but thats another thread) that man was free to use or not use, possess or not possess a firearm for self defense. I believe he was giving his life away by not carrying a firearm, or at least having one available. fortunately he didn't lose his life, lucky man.

[Jouster]

Someone posed the question as to if the gun would have been taken away or not and here's the best response to that. "If someone kills you with your own gun, make sure you shoot it at them till empty so they have to beat you to death with it"

Personally I do have my ccw and I had to make the concious choice as to whether I could kill someone in self defense or defense of another innocent and my answer was a resounding yes. I could never murder anyone. make sure you understand the difference.

your only purpose should be to stop not to kill. If a criminal dies while you are trying to stop them then that is their loss. only theirs. sure I would have nightmares about it. BUT I would be alive to have the nightmares. It beats the alternative every time.

I have a lot more to say on the subject but I'm exhausted. If I happen to peek into this thread later on I'll add more. good night gents.

[bcadoo]

Fair enough Steve, I would probably own some guns if i lived in the states. I just cannot believe all the people here saying they would play Duke Nukem in the streets would not have nightmares for the rest of their lives about the images of their own bullets ripping through childrens faces.

You make it sound like they are babes just weaned.  They are teenagers (some of them probably parents)....and typically you aim for center of mass, rather than a head shot.

[mechanic]

no way dude if you have to hit 50 of them you need head shots and no missing, did you never play any FPS games??  Once you get 10 head shots without missing you get the level 2 perk options such as reduced collateral damage mulitplier and double capacity mag. I always would go for double speed reloads though.

[Toad]

A mob of 0?  20? 10? 100?

I'm with Emiliano Zapata

¡Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!


Take your beatings at the hands of thugs. Allow your family to be threatened. Accept that death may await you and yours.

I choose a different path, thank you very much.

"No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keep a comin'." William J. McDonald 1852-1918

Who's McDonald? The Texas Ranger that inspired the saying "One Riot, One Ranger". He led quite a life standing up for what's right; interesting read.

Bow down before thugs as you will. It's your choice. It's certainly not mine.