Author Topic: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.  (Read 2391 times)

Offline Dantoo

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I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« on: July 10, 2009, 11:19:07 PM »
This current FSO (like all PTO events) is clearly limited by the plane set.  The fact that we are using Japanese army aircraft from carriers underscores the paucity.  It's a good move though, because it brings some balance to the event.  We don't do historic re-enactments in FSO.  We put a thin veneer of history over a setup to help with immersion, but the idea is to have everybody get a chance to do their job and then get home (if I understand it correctly).

Balance is about giving each side an equal chance of achieving their given task.  If the tasks are different then the tools are accordingly different.  If one side gets a harder task then they should get a greater number or a better quality of "tools" to do the job.  Balance, it's a whole of effort thing.

Playability is about the efficacy of a particular tool.  Can this ride do the job asked of it?  I can give an example.  One FSO, far far away in time, my squad was given m16s to attack a vbase held by panzers.  The designer said it was "historic".  I said "balls".  It was unplayable, as clearly the tools weren't applicable to the job given. There was no or little satisfaction for the guys on either side.  It was all over in 3 minutes.

This FSO series includes Vals and Kates probably because of the aforementioned paucity of Japanese Naval assets in the game.

At what point can you simply say that the veneer of immersion provided by using such types is thoroughly stripped away by their glaring unplayability.  Being tasked to attack a tough target defended by highly superior aircraft, in a deficient ride, with deficient numbers, seriously lacks playability.  If there is no chance to do your job and survive there is no satisfaction.

Can we come up with a framework for designers that allows as much use of the plane set as we are gifted, but within guidelines that doesn't leave one feeling, that when the orders are made, you are handing out a miserable deal to some poor squad "for historic reasons".
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 11:21:29 PM by Dantoo »
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

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Offline Saxman

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2009, 11:49:23 PM »
On the other hand, there comes a point where you can help balance a side to the point where it starts to kill the immersion. I hate seeing Ki-67s in place of G4Ms, especially in early and mid-war setups before the Ki-67 was introduced. The Japanese DO need a level bomber, especially when you consider the poorer strike capability of its single-engine aircraft compared to the American iron, (particularly as you get into the midwar period) but the Ki-67 is at the OPPOSITE end of the spectrum.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Bino

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 12:31:35 AM »
This current FSO (like all PTO events) is clearly limited by the plane set....

Granted, the plane set is not all-inclusive.  And it never will be, most likely.  Do we then ask the FSO godz to prohibit setups that require substitutions?  Making an absolute rule of "no substitutions" would certainly put an end to debates about the relative merits of vehicles (i.e. your tale of the M-16 vs. Pzkw.IV fight, which sounds like it was a real drag, IMHO). 

If stand-ins were forbidden, FSO set-ups would be pretty limited, neh?  Personally, so long as some semblance of logic prevails, I'd rather hold my nose and endure the occasional stand-in.  I'd rather see some variety - albeit with compromised historical accuracy - than play the same few set-ups over and over.  But that's just me.

And kudos to you for starting a reasonable discussion, Dantoo!  :salute


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Offline FiLtH

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 01:08:58 AM »
   There were a few good cv battles in the solomons and we have every cv plane needed for them for each side.

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Offline DaveJ

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2009, 08:39:53 AM »
I hate seeing Ki-67s in place of G4Ms, .

I hate when that happens too. Dreadful, dreadful stuff..
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Offline Drano

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2009, 08:52:50 AM »
I don't know what's wrong with this picture. Reasonable and Dantoo. Nah.   :D

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Offline Hajo

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2009, 09:09:10 AM »
Events will never be accurate until we can get some holes filled in the plane sets.  The I-16 and 239 are a great help.

But many more aircraft are needed.  Betty and Sally would be nice.  Trying to satisfy the Historical Freaks such as myself

and the MA run and gunners is a challenge.

The current plane set favors the ETO at this time.  The Med also to a great degree.

In my case making a list would be redundant.  I've done it many times.  If you will notice when FSO night comes

the MAs' drain significantly and the majority of the population shifts to the SEA.  That should be a hint to which is

most popular.


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« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 09:12:50 AM by Hajo »
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Offline Bino

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2009, 09:22:16 AM »
... If you will notice when FSO night comes the MAs' drain significantly and the majority of the population shifts to the SEA ...

Amen! Let's all keep spreadin' the word about how much fun we have in FSO.  :aok

...and keep posting the "missing" planes over in the Wishlist forum.  ;)


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Offline Saxman

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2009, 09:56:30 AM »


I keep saying it, you'd almost think there wasn't a war in the Pacific at all with all the media focus on Europe.

DESPERATELY Needed:

Ki-43 (PRIORITY AIRCRAFT!)
G4M (PRIORITY AIRCRAFT!)
Ki-21
Ki-27
A5M
D4Y
B6N

Would like, but not critical:

G3M
Ki-44
Ki-45
J2M
N1K2 (we have the N1K2-J)
A6M3 Models 32 and 22 (Model 22 would be a preference, but I could see the clipped-wing Model 32 because it would offer something distinctive from the A6M2 and A6M5)
Ki-100
B7A (actually faster and more maneuverable than the Zero. Small production numbers could make it a rare perk choice for the Japanese set)
Ki-48
Ki-30
Ki-49
P1Y
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Hajo

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2009, 03:51:26 PM »
Saxman.....Amen.
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Offline fudgums

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2009, 04:28:40 PM »
Put a6m3 as critical
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27

Offline shiv

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2009, 05:47:03 PM »
Dang, that B7A looks like fun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aichi_B7A
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Offline Krusty

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 12:38:18 AM »
Once upon a time, long ago, the FSO held an interesting world (virtual, that is) for me. In this world you might get a kill, you might get killed, and you might just as well survive a frame with no kills, never firing a shot, but being mixed up in the thick of it all the while.


The past many many months it has been nothing but 1-way trips. You can't finish the job, you can't make it back safely, there's almost never any real gameplay balance (later war setups are just as bad as early ones!). The entire thing stinks like a fish cannery.

I've stopped showing up at FSOs except on very special occassions (if I really want to fly "plane X") because it's going down the tubes, and has been steadily.

It's nothing but a deathmatch fragfest, and I stopped playing first person shooters online because that gets boring after you pass the age of 12. Why would I want to fly AH setups that wind up that way?

Answer is: I wouldn't.

So I don't.

That's my 1-man movement.

Offline Krusty

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 12:39:53 AM »
Put a6m3 as critical

laff

Performance wise it was no better than the A6M2. Few mph tops. It's not vital at all, aside from slight increase in ammo, and power dip at mid alts where the M2 doesn't have one.

Offline DaveJ

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Re: I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 07:18:36 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

I keep saying it, you'd almost think there wasn't a war in the Pacific at all with all the media focus on Europe.

DESPERATELY Needed:

Ki-43 (PRIORITY AIRCRAFT!)
G4M (PRIORITY AIRCRAFT!)
Ki-21
Ki-27
A5M
D4Y
B6N

Would like, but not critical:

G3M
Ki-44
Ki-45
J2M
N1K2 (we have the N1K2-J)
A6M3 Models 32 and 22 (Model 22 would be a preference, but I could see the clipped-wing Model 32 because it would offer something distinctive from the A6M2 and A6M5)
Ki-100
B7A (actually faster and more maneuverable than the Zero. Small production numbers could make it a rare perk choice for the Japanese set)
Ki-48
Ki-30
Ki-49
P1Y

We just don't need those. I'm sorry. You can't honestly tell me a Ki-49, Ki-30, Ki-48, etc is desperately needed in AH. These are planes that you really need to dig up when researching the war, whereas there are some more well known aircraft that are no brainers when it comes to being added.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 07:20:23 AM by DaveJ »
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