Author Topic: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...  (Read 3865 times)

Offline Vudak

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2009, 07:56:41 AM »
I have a question for the people who enjoy taking bases:

Considering that when taking bases in an unlimited-life situation such as Aces High, the attacker faces much higher attrition (because of the longer time it takes them to reach the base), is it really in the attacking force's best interest to have their limited "resources" immediately present their enemy with a 50/50 chance of shooting them down?

I'm not much of a base-taker myself, so I'd hope someone could clear this up for me.  I'm under the impression that much of the community thinks this is a great idea.

Still waiting on this one.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2009, 07:59:25 AM »
Still waiting on this one.
Sometimes taking a base can spawn some very good fights...its when people overwhelm a base NOE or shut down the hangars so there isnt a fight that gets on my nerves :salute
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Offline Vudak

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2009, 08:02:31 AM »
Sometimes taking a base can spawn some very good fights...its when people overwhelm a base NOE or shut down the hangars so there isnt a fight that gets on my nerves :salute

You're not answering the question at all, Junky.

It's a question about whether or not a HO is really that great of an idea from a base-taker's perspective.  It's also a question that would be very awkward for some of this crowd to answer, so it probably won't be.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2009, 08:25:21 AM »
You're not answering the question at all, Junky.

It's a question about whether or not a HO is really that great of an idea from a base-taker's perspective.  It's also a question that would be very awkward for some of this crowd to answer, so it probably won't be.

if they're overwhelming the base, then yes, it can be a good tactic. granted, you're standing a good chance of dying, but you don't give the other guy a chance to down you, a squaddie, or hit your troop carrier, or troops.
 when they're taking a base, all base takers want is that base...at any cost. it does make sense.

 i like to find the fights when they're doing that. often, a furball will erupt somewhere near the base that they're trying to take. if not, i'll go look elsewhere. the other night, i flew over an undefended base.....i flew slow, hoping that someone would see me on their dar, and think i was buffs, and come up. no one did, so i upped from another base, and flew almost 3 sectors to find a big bardar.

back to the original thing though.....if there's a group of say 10 trying to take A45, and they had to fly a full sector to get there.......they have a goon with them.....town just about flat......you're off the runway, running with the throttle firewalled, heading to town to stop the take, and you're skimming the trees.....and they have you outnumbered......it could make sense to risk losing one of their numbers to keep you off their troops.
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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2009, 08:31:22 AM »
Sorry man but I have to disagree...the "quality of gameplay" is primarily dictated by the game itself...not the people...the players simply learn to use the various elements of the game to their own advantages...in an FPS it's character flexibility, simulated weapons and environment...in a flight sim it's simulated aircraft, simulated weapons and understanding the basics of simulated flight...

I'm willing to bet the percentage of real life combat experienced pilots playing this game is very slim...even then those who are combat experienced pilots are most likely jet age pilots...big difference in tactics and strategies from WWI to WWII to jet era...technology forced those changes.

Why is it that "old cyber aces" here as well as the "other flight sim" automatically assume you're the ultimate experts in aerial combat just because you've been playing a flight simulator for 10 or more years? Because you've read every book ever written on WWII aerial combat? Because you spent more money on your cyber flying hardware than you have on clothes in the past 10 years? All it proves is you know how to read and calibrate a joy stick. squeaking, moaning, whining, chiding, talking trash, etc...at people who don't immediately conform to your idea of how to fight in their cartoon planes only makes you look like a little kid.

I enjoy a good dogfight as much as anyone...but if I find myself in circumstances that dictate the expeditious dispatching of an opponent to improve my chances of survival...I'll take whatever shot is available...

For all you "expert uber cyber aces"...if you're that good...you should know how to outmaneuver someone who may end up ho'ing just so you don't have something to squeak about in the first place...

As with everything else in life, one is entitled to opinion, no matter how misguided.

On all relevant fronts, we disagree.

Suggesting that the quality of gameplay is the result of the game and not the player base is like suggesting that the quality of a boxing match is dictated by the ring and not the boxers.

Suggesting that the percentage of players who have combat hours is low is likely accurate.  Not sure how this is relevant.

Suggesting that the fundamental tactics of air combat change as a result of technology is inaccurate.  The fundamentals remain the same.  Not sure how this is relevant.

Suggesting that... actually Im not sure what youre trying to suggest with the paragraph ending with the words "little kid" but it certainly appears as though youve accurately described yourself with the phrase.

If I may, I would support the previously voiced statement that youve received sound advice in this thread.  The delivery method is immaterial.  If you can not identify quality information through your haze of emotionally charged opinions, that not really our problem.

You can choose to consider the advice and grow or you can choose to ignore the advice and stall. 

Offline Vudak

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2009, 09:05:33 AM »
if they're overwhelming the base, then yes, it can be a good tactic. granted, you're standing a good chance of dying, but you don't give the other guy a chance to down you, a squaddie, or hit your troop carrier, or troops.
 when they're taking a base, all base takers want is that base...at any cost. it does make sense.


I disagree.  Assuming the attacker wants to have at least energy/altitude advantage upon arrival, they need to climb en route.  It can take them 10+ minutes to arrive.  Even if they don't want the altitude, and scream in from the deck, it will take them several minutes to show up.

Meanwhile, the defender need only spend 30-90 seconds to get up enough speed to present a legitimate threat.

Logistically, the further away you are from your base of operations, the worse of an idea going for a HO shot becomes.  The defender can afford to lose as much as 20 times the HO shots as the attacker.

Are there exceptions?  Sure.  If a defender is headed towards your goon, by all means, take the shot.  But if we're talking the early stages of base-taking, going for that HO is not in your best interest as the base-taker.

Many people in these HO arguments pull out the "if you're so good, why don't you avoid it" argument.  Fair enough for a 1v1.  But what about a 4v4?  There have been many, many times where I have gone into a 4v4 fight only to find it a 1v4 in a matter of moments because the friendlies took 50/50 odds, and lost.

In an ideal world, all the red guys try to HO, and none of the green guys do.
Vudak
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #96 on: July 15, 2009, 10:27:07 AM »
As with everything else in life, one is entitled to opinion, no matter how misguided.

On all relevant fronts, we disagree.

Suggesting that the quality of gameplay is the result of the game and not the player base is like suggesting that the quality of a boxing match is dictated by the ring and not the boxers.

Oh you know what, thank you for letting me know I'm misguided since I haven't played AH for as long as you have...I tend to forget that one has to be a 10 year veteran armchair cyber ace pilot to be able to form a valid opinion...forgive me for not bowing down to the supreme level of greatness around here...<whatever>

Your analogy between game play and boxing is out in left field...one is direct interaction between 2 people with no pre-programmed influences (unless the fight is fixed)...the other is interaction of 1 person and a large amount of computer code...in online multiplayer games it's multiple people with the same computer code exchanging bits of that computer code over various distances...if the code is bad, the interaction is bad...look around these forums at the number of complaints about one factor or another in the game...those little glitches and anomalies directly affect the "quality" of game play for those who experience them...do I have to dummy this down further?


Suggesting that the percentage of players who have combat hours is low is likely accurate.  Not sure how this is relevant.
Suggesting that the fundamental tactics of air combat change as a result of technology is inaccurate.  The fundamentals remain the same.  Not sure how this is relevant.

Your idea of "relevance" is as far off as your misguided sense of superiority...(1) real life combat hours - relevance: no one without first hand knowledge of combat can authoritatively dictate absolute knowledge of said subject to anyone...(2) aerial combat tactics and technology - relevance: historical documentation shows that aerial combat tactics in WWI were different than those developed in WWII due to the technological advances in aircraft, (i.e. faster planes, more guns, additional armaments, etc...)...similar documentation shows that aerial combat tactics in turbine powered jet aircraft is far different than the tactics used in WWI or WWII...(i.e. dogfights now involve onboard radar and guided missile systems at long ranges rather than large caliber bullets at short ranges...a head on attack can occur at super sonic speeds using both hyervelocity solid projectiles as well as guided missile systems).



Suggesting that... actually Im not sure what youre trying to suggest with the paragraph ending with the words "little kid" but it certainly appears as though youve accurately described yourself with the phrase.

You really don't understand the concept of "context" do you?...in the "context" that the words "little kid" were written, I was suggesting that anyone who feels the need to complain about or ridicule someone for something as trivial as a head on attack is acting childish.



If I may, I would support the previously voiced statement that youve received sound advice in this thread.  The delivery method is immaterial.  If you can not identify quality information through your haze of emotionally charged opinions, that not really our problem.

You can choose to consider the advice and grow or you can choose to ignore the advice and stall. 

You may and you have...though I have yet to see any sort of sound advice in this thread directed toward myself...it's all opinion...there is no good or bad, it's just opinion...and I never get "emotionally charged" over anything as trivial as what happens in a video game...unlike a large number of the people around here...it's actually quite humorous.

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2009, 10:32:46 AM »
I HO'd 3 guys last night.   :uhoh

Rooks were working the Bish over in the south area of the Pinwheel map (Titanic Tuesdey).  I upped a 190A-8 to go buff hunting but after flying around for quite a while I hadn't found any buffs.

Menwhile Rooks had a full red dar bar over one of our fields with no Bish resistance.  I was there circling on my perch looking for buffs but nothing.  Then I noticed a couple of friendly fighters coming in from the west and thought what the h*ll, I'm in.

I dove in to find 8-10 enemy cons vulching the field.  Within minutes the two friendlies were dead and I was alone with 5-6 cons of all sorts on me.  I had speed but not enough to climb out so I made a few fast turns taking two cons out on HO shots (A Jug and a Pony) along the way then tried to egress with five still chasing me.  Thank Kurt Tank for the 190's outstanding roll rate as I used it to remain an elusive target.  Finally all had turned off except a Zeke and we were playing a game of scissors.

Just as the Zeke was closing for the overshoot I ran out of fuel, rolled a few last times to bleed E then ditched safely.

I also HO'd another Pony last night who started with an alt/E advantage on my Spit XVI.  He'd BnZ then run.  After I turned he'd come back a few minutes later and repeat.  Finally, fed up with this pest and realizing this "gun and run" crap could go on forever, I just HO'd him on one of his passes killing his engine.

I guess there's a time and place for the HO.  When facing overwhelming odds in an "inferior" aircraft then you do what you have to do.  When someone's just being a pest with no real intent to fight they get what they get.

Yes, most of us do or have HO'd.  I did it last night but I still wouldn't advocate HOing in most situations.  It takes a lot of the "sport" out of the game.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:37:21 AM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Wreked

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2009, 10:41:08 AM »
opps - wron thread - thanx
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:49:15 AM by Wreked »
HO is a HO is a HO!!
You can lead a donkey to a FACT - you just can't make them think!

cheers eh!!

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2009, 10:43:08 AM »
Intersting reading here...I see a lot of demeaning/belittling statements right here from both new AND old sticks. Guess it's just part and parcel of the culture.

So perhaps a little direction please. While I understand the reason/intent of the ".report" function I'm a little hazy on the mechanics of it.
If I understand it correctly : If a X# of ".reports" are sent during a certain period of time then a communication penalty is assessed against the named individual.

-is this immediate?
-for how long?
-is there a right/method for adjudication?
-guidelines for language? (I find things today on TV/Radio that would heve been no-no 20 years ago)(you'd be surprised at the language that kids 8-10yo use in the school yard today heheh)


I did do a "search" and found bits an pieces here and there but nothing definitive.

thanx for this - a PM pointing me in the right direction is fine.

cheers eh!

Wrong thread.
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Offline usvi

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2009, 10:50:38 AM »
guns are pointed forward for a reason
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Offline CAP1

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2009, 11:16:26 AM »
I disagree.  Assuming the attacker wants to have at least energy/altitude advantage upon arrival, they need to climb en route.  It can take them 10+ minutes to arrive.  Even if they don't want the altitude, and scream in from the deck, it will take them several minutes to show up.

Meanwhile, the defender need only spend 30-90 seconds to get up enough speed to present a legitimate threat.

Logistically, the further away you are from your base of operations, the worse of an idea going for a HO shot becomes.  The defender can afford to lose as much as 20 times the HO shots as the attacker.

Are there exceptions?  Sure.  If a defender is headed towards your goon, by all means, take the shot.  But if we're talking the early stages of base-taking, going for that HO is not in your best interest as the base-taker.

Many people in these HO arguments pull out the "if you're so good, why don't you avoid it" argument.  Fair enough for a 1v1.  But what about a 4v4?  There have been many, many times where I have gone into a 4v4 fight only to find it a 1v4 in a matter of moments because the friendlies took 50/50 odds, and lost.

In an ideal world, all the red guys try to HO, and none of the green guys do.

i see your point. i was thinking farther along in the taking process.....the point where there's only a few buildings left, and troops inbound...or already there.


now, don't mis-intrepret me......i'm not defending the ho'er in any way shape or form........i was just throwing a possibility out there.
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Offline Yeager

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2009, 12:26:52 PM »
just to remind you guys: HO shots are not any sort of problem.  The only reason folks are whining so loudly is because the LW arenas are simply packed too tightly with too many players.  This overcrowding results in frenzied gameplay where people horde and end up treating the game cheaply. 

Simple overcrowding. 

I am confident when I say more people would enjoy their playing more, and there would be far less whining, if arenas were capped at 120 on small maps.

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Offline trigger2

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2009, 12:35:22 PM »
Oh you know what, thank you for letting me know I'm misguided since I haven't played AH for as long as you have...I tend to forget that one has to be a 10 year veteran armchair cyber ace pilot to be able to form a valid opinion...forgive me for not bowing down to the supreme level of greatness around here...<whatever>
No, we just ask you kids to bow down to those who actually know what they're talking about, you, obviously, are not one of them.

And btw, the game does not make the gameplay, the players do. The players make the decision on how to interact and how to use their aircraft (including ACM), where the coding (which I will assume you've never seen any of...) is concrete, there are variables, but those variables are used depending on user input. There are 3 parts to any good code...
INPUT, CALCULATION, OUTPUT.
The user controls the input and the output, which is why the PLAYER is what makes gameplay, not the game itself.


I hope that one day your misguided little mind will mature enough to appreciate the sound of good advice that others who know more than you give. As someone once said...
"Learn from the mistakes others make, because life's too short to make them all yourself."
Sometimes, we just need to remember what the rules of life really are: You only
need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and should, use the
WD-40. If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: JESTER, to settle our argument earlier...
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2009, 12:37:36 PM »
Oh you know what, thank you for letting me know I'm misguided since I haven't played AH for as long as you have...I tend to forget that one has to be a 10 year veteran armchair cyber ace pilot to be able to form a valid opinion...forgive me for not bowing down to the supreme level of greatness around here...<whatever>

I think you need to settle down.  Your reactions to some of the posts in this thread are borderline ridiculous.

I have stated *that* your opinion is misguided, not *why* your opinion is misguided. 

I have not mentioned the length of time I have spent playing AH or any other online flight sim of a similar nature.  By default then, I have also not made any comparison between one's time spent playing and the validity of one's opinion.

By putting words in my mouth to "create" an argument, you are only arguing with yourself, which is silly.

Quote
Your analogy between game play and boxing is out in left field...one is direct interaction between 2 people with no pre-programmed influences (unless the fight is fixed)...the other is interaction of 1 person and a large amount of computer code...in online multiplayer games it's multiple people with the same computer code exchanging bits of that computer code over various distances...if the code is bad, the interaction is bad...look around these forums at the number of complaints about one factor or another in the game...those little glitches and anomalies directly affect the "quality" of game play for those who experience them...do I have to dummy this down further?

Actually, my analogy is 100% accurate.  The collection of words you have piled together, above, is jibberish. 

Simplify the discussion and draw a logical conclusion.  We can use the form of a multiple choice question if it helps.

Q:  Two cartoon airplanes positioned nose to nose in a virtual arena are as...

A.  Two virtual arenas comprising the Matrix, within which Neo resides, and HO's you.
B.  A whole bunch of computer "bits" and "code" and glitchy forum servers placed at the warning track in left field of Wrigley Park.
C.  Skuzzy loves you.
D. Two boxers positioned toe to toe in a tangible ring.

The correct answer is D.  Two cartoon airplanes positioned nose to nose in a virtual arena are as... Two boxers positioned toe to toe in a tangible ring.

Now, that didnt really need to be said, but it was fun, so thanks.  On to the next.

Quote
Your idea of "relevance" is as far off as your misguided sense of superiority...(1) real life combat hours - relevance: no one without first hand knowledge of combat can authoritatively dictate absolute knowledge of said subject to anyone...(2) aerial combat tactics and technology - relevance: historical documentation shows that aerial combat tactics in WWI were different than those developed in WWII due to the technological advances in aircraft, (i.e. faster planes, more guns, additional armaments, etc...)...similar documentation shows that aerial combat tactics in turbine powered jet aircraft is far different than the tactics used in WWI or WWII...(i.e. dogfights now involve onboard radar and guided missile systems at long ranges rather than large caliber bullets at short ranges...a head on attack can occur at super sonic speeds using both hyervelocity solid projectiles as well as guided missile systems).

Ack.  Again with the "word piling."  Paragraphs are everyone's friend.  Use them and be well.

I will again state that what you have written in jibberish.  Nevertheless, I will make an attempt to respond after putting your words through my HAL9000 Translator v.2.0.

:::buzzing, beeping, etc:::

Ok.  By point, then:

1.)  Untrue.  While first hand knowledge is always preferable, it is not the only absolute perspective from which to gain understanding.  In fact, you could make a very good argument that a similarly myopic perspective would hinder full understanding. 

For example, if you attend a hockey game and sit right up against the glass, its neat and fun and you can impress the dame on your arm.  But... you cant see whats going on.  You need to be in the mezzanine level to really watch the ice. 

By the same token, there are countless, first-hand accounts from Allied pilots about the Fw-190's "superior" turning ability.  Today, we know these claims to be incorrect due to mathematical impossibility.  All you need is a calculator and the appropriate inputs which, in that case (simplified), would be weight and wing area.

2.)  Untrue.  Im am unsure to which "historical documents" you are referring because you have not cited sources, but the fundamentals of air combat have remained the same since, in the words of Chuck Yeager, "...the first idiot brought a pistol with him, decided to shoot at the other idiot, and ruined a perfectly good thing."

There might be a difference between us with respect to the definition of "fundamentals."  You cite technology as your primary example of a catalyst for change.  While technology alters the ability and the means, the end is always the same.  From the first bloke to take a pistol into the cockpit to Luke Skywalker's X-Wing, the fundamental rule (in reality) is to approach without detection, with every conceivable advantage, and to end the "fight" before one begins.

Technology does not change this fundamental.  Whether you are diving out of the sun or firing a missile beyond the radar detection range of your target, you are still approaching unseen, with every attainable advantage, and ending the fight before it becomes one.

Quote
You really don't understand the concept of "context" do you?...in the "context" that the words "little kid" were written, I was suggesting that anyone who feels the need to complain about or ridicule someone for something as trivial as a head on attack is acting childish.

I understand the concept of context quite well.  Contextually speaking, it is entirely possible that you do not understand the concept of satire.

Quote
You may and you have...though I have yet to see any sort of sound advice in this thread directed toward myself...it's all opinion...there is no good or bad, it's just opinion...and I never get "emotionally charged" over anything as trivial as what happens in a video game...unlike a large number of the people around here...it's actually quite humorous.

We agree on something!  This is humorous.