Hard Times for N. Korea

[Anodizer]

I should have known.  Value for life on a cultural level is completely different than value for life at the political level.  Like I said before, the leaders may treat their people like serfs, but it doesn't mean that the citizenry doesn't value life as much as we do.  Those people value human rights as much as we do--they just don't have them.

Just a question, do you even know anything of Asian culture?  Asian History?  Have you been there?  How many Asians do you actually know that are from their respective countries that spent a significant portion of their lives there and not born in the US or some other country?
I think that if you knew this information, you'd retract what you're saying..  This is something that transcends the political and cultural aspect..  It's how these people operate..  For most of known history, most Asian countries have been communal..  Being communal is something taught in Confucianism..  The good of the many outweigh the need of the few or the one sort of thing..
This applies to both political and cultural aspects..  The Homeless, The Sick, etc. tend to be ignored and cast aside(common in almost every Asian culture)..  Children born with birth defects are thrown into institutions or are abandoned at birth (common in China)..  Do you not understand that these people have a fundamentally different way of thinking when compared to western countries?  Has nothing to do with politics..  In fact, I think this is a "cultural" trait that is magnified in their political structure..

[Masherbrum]

Oak, Im in Army at Yongsan, in Seoul. HAs a 30 minute life expectancey if the North attacks. I love when people sit back and say they will just rattle their sabres when the North is on its back looking to solve the problem

I love it when people like yourself haven't a clue either.   You act like you are in the Pentagon at times and you're far from it.   But if any of you paranoids, think that NK will attack again, you're nuts.   The people don't want to get annihilated anymore than the SK's people. 

Junky please, your life expectancy is 2 mins, not 30 minutes.  My father was on the DMZ for 1.5 years and I doubt anything has changed.   You're in Seoul, not even on the DMZ.   The US always heads into those tunnels, as do the NK's.   My father did patrols in those tunnels wide enough for two tanks abreast.   One time when he was a bout 1/2 way through, he had to cover himself up as a squad of NK's were in em doing head shots.   The identical situation happened to LTARMac as well when he was in the tunnels. 

Maverick, all of the paranoids only have "guesses", which is no more accurate than saying that the younger generation in NK would not fight.   Again, 1/2 of their "always touted" Large Army is unarmed.   They have NOTHING to gain by attacking SK.   Again, all they do is constantly make noise to have the spotlight put on them at times.   Nothing more, nothing less.   

Again, it ain't gonna happen.   

[Masherbrum]

I bet people were saying that 55 years ago.....To my knowledge they have never had this bad of a problem with money, then had the UN make it even worse by freezing accounts and ROK stop helping them. Tell me about the "Army" isnt it mandatory that they join for a certain amount of years? Pretty hard for even us to equip our  volunteer soldiers with good gear and we dont have half that number.

Communism in that Country has created their poverty.   If they knock off the attention potato behavior, the UN would leave them alone.   

[Sikboy]

Any time there is an ailing leader in an authoritarian regime, we have to be wary of the possibility that instability could lead to military action. I would think this is especially true in Korea where there is so much firepower concentrated.

However, barring a brain eating bacteria wiping out what's left of Kim Jong Il's capability of reason, I just don't see this going anywhere. The leadership up North would have to actually believe they could obtain something of value by attacking, and at this point I'm not seeing it. They can't win by conquest. I think the U.S. Military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan would have convinced them that they can not protect their armor or Air defense infrastructure. So maybe they can grab some real estate and try to hold it long enough to reach a favorable negotiated peace? I don't see that as viable either.

As I argued in a different thread on the DPRK, the nuclear program doesn't give them a tactical advantage right now, so... Even the craziest of Dictators don't attack unless they can get something out of it. I think the biggest threat we have (in relation to the ailing leader issue) is an accidental war due to some breakdown in communication. But even that's a pretty remote possibility.

Finally, when I was stationed in Japan I remember tons of coverage of incidents including one where the crew of a DPRK Mini-sub became stranded in the ROK, and (IIRC), had a shootout with the local police. Good times out there in the Pacific lol. But While I was there I was always sure that it was 4th and goal for the Commies! Keep in mind I was over there when Kim Il Sung passed the torch, and we went through the same spaz attack.

-Sik

[Masherbrum]

Any time there is an ailing leader in an authoritarian regime, we have to be wary of the possibility that instability could lead to military action. I would think this is especially true in Korea where there is so much firepower concentrated.

However, barring a brain eating bacteria wiping out what's left of Kim Jong Il's capability of reason, I just don't see this going anywhere. The leadership up North would have to actually believe they could obtain something of value by attacking, and at this point I'm not seeing it. They can't win by conquest. I think the U.S. Military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan would have convinced them that they can not protect their armor or Air defense infrastructure. So maybe they can grab some real estate and try to hold it long enough to reach a favorable negotiated peace? I don't see that as viable either.

As I argued in a different thread on the DPRK, the nuclear program doesn't give them a tactical advantage right now, so... Even the craziest of Dictators don't attack unless they can get something out of it. I think the biggest threat we have (in relation to the ailing leader issue) is an accidental war due to some breakdown in communication. But even that's a pretty remote possibility.

Finally, when I was stationed in Japan I remember tons of coverage of incidents including one where the crew of a DPRK Mini-sub became stranded in the ROK, and (IIRC), had a shootout with the local police. Good times out there in the Pacific lol. But While I was there I was always sure that it was 4th and goal for the Commies! Keep in mind I was over there when Kim Il Sung passed the torch, and we went through the same spaz attack.

-Sik

Bingo!   Well put Sik.

[ghi]

And your link to confirm this is????

 Their current leader is dying, he may not give a rats posterior about his countrymen.

I agree,
 Kim has very slim chances to survive pancreatic cancer , maybe before was afraid for his life.
Fear the man who has nothing to lose.

[Sikboy]

Bingo!   Well put Sik.

Thanks. This is one of the 5 times of the year that having a degree in International Relations will be momentarily relevant lol.

Now if everyone who read my post can just send me 5 bucks via paypall, I would appreciate it

-Sik

[JunkyII]

I love it when people like yourself haven't a clue either.   You act like you are in the Pentagon at times and you're far from it.   But if any of you paranoids, think that NK will attack again, you're nuts.   The people don't want to get annihilated anymore than the SK's people. 

Junky please, your life expectancy is 2 mins, not 30 minutes.  My father was on the DMZ for 1.5 years and I doubt anything has changed.   You're in Seoul, not even on the DMZ.   The US always heads into those tunnels, as do the NK's.   My father did patrols in those tunnels wide enough for two tanks abreast.   One time when he was a bout 1/2 way through, he had to cover himself up as a squad of NK's were in em doing head shots.   The identical situation happened to LTARMac as well when he was in the tunnels. 

Maverick, all of the paranoids only have "guesses", which is no more accurate than saying that the younger generation in NK would not fight.   Again, 1/2 of their "always touted" Large Army is unarmed.   They have NOTHING to gain by attacking SK.   Again, all they do is constantly make noise to have the spotlight put on them at times.   Nothing more, nothing less.   

Again, it ain't gonna happen.   

Other then land for agriculture and a bigger economy, yea they have nothing to gain. I never claimed to be something Im not. Not doubting about your father being over here, but the only thing Ive heard is Seoul has 30 seconds, CP Casey has 7....heres a test for you smart guy, how far can you run in a minute and thirty seconds....Im pretty fast and I wont make it off post. My unit being the only Infantry unit in Seoul has to stay until everyone is out, ill keep my head down for you. Your farther's situation, even though very grave, has nothing to deal with if the North will go to war. In fact it might just help my arguement showing how the North is brain washed by its leaders and will react to whatever they say. The people are brainwashed up there, I dont know what they think and neither do you.

[Vulcan]

Kim's son's seem somewhat westernized (booze and gambling ) - I predict when push comes to shove once Kim is out of the way they'll push for re-unification.

[Anodizer]

Kim's son's seem somewhat westernized (booze and gambling ) - I predict when push comes to shove once Kim is out of the way they'll push for re-unification.

Being that he's in his 20's, it his doubtful he'll have any real power....  He's the only son who hasn't gotten into any trouble abroad and is the reason he's his father's favorite.. 
Kim's son(Kim Jong Un) has been educated in Switzerland, speaks several languages, and has been all over the Eastern Hemisphere and most of Europe..
He makes a great figurehead and some one the DPRK can use to "improve it's image"..  But, again, he will be only for show just like the rest of their charade collection(such as the state sponsored tours you can take meant to impress westerners even though most westerners are too smart to buy into their propaganda)..

Believe it or not, all the political elites in the DPRK are westernized to some extent..  They definitely enjoy western luxuries that the rest of the populace can only
dream of or don't even know exist.. 

Also, China will never allow reunification unless the DPRK is running the show..  No way does China want another Western backed country on their door step..

[Ack-Ack]

but I wonder if every mother really places as much value on her neighbor's kids as we do. 

I would say that culturally, the Asian culture places as much emphasis on that as western cultures do, maybe even more so in some aspects.


ack-ack

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

re-unification, for a country of people who wake up every day and have been told the west is the reason for everything going wrong in they're life's, for over 50 years.

Think of it like your father "north korea" telling you your mother "south korea" has been "captured by so and so" for the past 50+ years and then you have the power to go and save her "re-unification" THEN you can be a nice happy family again. Because the man drinks and gambles shows nothing for being a westerner, it simply shows he is willing to be a young king "or prince" if you will, while his people continue to be peasant's.

Yeah, this will end well.


Do not underestimate anyone, and always fear "or understand" those who have nothing too loose regardless of how little they have to gain.

[Stoney]

Just a question, do you even know anything of Asian culture?  Asian History?  Have you been there?  How many Asians do you actually know that are from their respective countries that spent a significant portion of their lives there and not born in the US or some other country?
I think that if you knew this information, you'd retract what you're saying..  This is something that transcends the political and cultural aspect..  It's how these people operate..  For most of known history, most Asian countries have been communal..  Being communal is something taught in Confucianism..  The good of the many outweigh the need of the few or the one sort of thing..
This applies to both political and cultural aspects..  The Homeless, The Sick, etc. tend to be ignored and cast aside(common in almost every Asian culture)..  Children born with birth defects are thrown into institutions or are abandoned at birth (common in China)..  Do you not understand that these people have a fundamentally different way of thinking when compared to western countries?  Has nothing to do with politics..  In fact, I think this is a "cultural" trait that is magnified in their political structure..

When I was in college, my military history degree concentrated on WWII PTO and Vietnam.  One of my buddies from school, his father was at Dien Bien Phu when it fell, and also had the experience of observing Chairman Mao's army in the late 1940's.  I used to go to his house and listen to his stories over a plate of Chinese food he ordered in Mandarin.  I lived in Japan for 3 years.  I've trained with the Japanese Defense Force.  I've trained with South Korean Marines and have participated in multiple training operations on the peninsula.  I've been to Hong Kong twice, Macau once, and have spent a night in Taipei.  I've crawled in tunnels at the base of Mt. Suribachi and looked at IJA soldiers' skeletons.  I've participated in operations in East Timor, and helped settle down Molotav Cocktail parties at the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia.  One of my best friends lived and worked in Japan and Hong Kong, is married to a Japanese national and when over there, I used to visit with them and her friends regularly.  I did not, however, take an anthropology course in college taught by an ex-pat Chinese professor.  I am not, nor do I pretend to be an expert in Asian culture, but I do have an informed opinion.  Disagree if you like, but don't be disrespectful...

[Masherbrum]

Other then land for agriculture and a bigger economy, yea they have nothing to gain. I never claimed to be something Im not. Not doubting about your father being over here, but the only thing Ive heard is Seoul has 30 seconds, CP Casey has 7....heres a test for you smart guy, how far can you run in a minute and thirty seconds....Im pretty fast and I wont make it off post. My unit being the only Infantry unit in Seoul has to stay until everyone is out, ill keep my head down for you. Your farther's situation, even though very grave, has nothing to deal with if the North will go to war. In fact it might just help my arguement showing how the North is brain washed by its leaders and will react to whatever they say. The people are brainwashed up there, I dont know what they think and neither do you.

They aren't "brainwashed".   The only people I see brainwashed are the paranoids.   Especially after NK threatens Japan a helluva lot more than SK.   But the US/SK always gets mentioned more.   

Give it up.   You're taking for granted what the NK people are like, by hearing spoon fed BS from our media.   Again, the majority of that population doesn't want War.   I am smart, but I don't live my life in fear and never will.   

[Vudak]

I would say that culturally, the Asian culture places as much emphasis on that as western cultures do, maybe even more so in some aspects.

ack-ack

I'll take your word for it.  I just don't know that it's the cultural universal we sometimes like to hope it is.