Author Topic: Hard Times for N. Korea  (Read 2283 times)

Offline Anodizer

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2009, 01:16:58 AM »
When I was in college, my military history degree concentrated on WWII PTO and Vietnam.  One of my buddies from school, his father was at Dien Bien Phu when it fell, and also had the experience of observing Chairman Mao's army in the late 1940's.  I used to go to his house and listen to his stories over a plate of Chinese food he ordered in Mandarin.  I lived in Japan for 3 years.  I've trained with the Japanese Defense Force.  I've trained with South Korean Marines and have participated in multiple training operations on the peninsula.  I've been to Hong Kong twice, Macau once, and have spent a night in Taipei.  I've crawled in tunnels at the base of Mt. Suribachi and looked at IJA soldiers' skeletons.  I've participated in operations in East Timor, and helped settle down Molotav Cocktail parties at the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia.  One of my best friends lived and worked in Japan and Hong Kong, is married to a Japanese national and when over there, I used to visit with them and her friends regularly.  I did not, however, take an anthropology course in college taught by an ex-pat Chinese professor.  I am not, nor do I pretend to be an expert in Asian culture, but I do have an informed opinion.  Disagree if you like, but don't be disrespectful...


Forgive, I didn't mean to belittle or disrespect you and I apologize for coming of a bit abrasive.  However, sir...All but a few of the countries(well, Hong Kong isn't really a country) you mentioned have been introduced western values and culture in fairly recent times from a historical stand point..  Not saying your opinion isn't informed one bit..  
Again, don't mean to disrespect, but I'm not sure where any of the things you stated as experiencing or seeing disproves my point.......?

I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert either, but Asia (from a political, historical and cultural point of view) has always intrigued me and it is one of the few things
that I read about on a regular basis..  To be honest, I've always thought that Asians (immigrants as well as those who still live in their respective countries) to be a bit odd..  For instance, in South Korea, one does not feel they've gotten a good experience at the Doctor's office unless they get an injection..  Why would anyone think that way????  That's like saying I don't feel like I had a good night at the strip club unless someone kicks me in the nuts..  Things like this pique my interest..  After that, you start to find more strange things..  Eventually, you stumble upon relevant bits of info..  Over time, my research got more and more on the serious side and not just the weird oddities.  I can't speak a word of Mandarin or any other Asian tongue beyond common pleasantries(and most of those I've forgotten)..  I've never been to any Asian country but will definitely make it there at least once, if not several times hopefully..
I've heard time and time again from a few Chinese immigrants that used to live in my old apartment building that there is little if any regard for the fellow man in Asian culture that hasn't been introduced to western values..  This was one of the things they found most surprising and took some getting used to upon arriving in the states: courtesy..  Words like "Thank You" are hardly used..  Things like "What do you want" are more common in shops and markets as opposed to "Can I help you find something" or "How can I help you?"  I had to look the word up because I couldn't remember, but I specifically remember a conversation with one guy from China telling me the most common term used at the market was "su" which is translated as "complain" or "tell" but which they see as "Say it", "Tell It" and "Complain It".





« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 02:05:36 AM by Anodizer »
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Offline moot

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2009, 01:33:59 AM »
One thing that slips thru the cracks of these kinds of comparisons, in my experience, is that different cultures will place different amount of emphasis on something like children in different ways.  How much total emphasis, or what is emphasized about any given topic needs to be specified if you really want to make meaningful comparisons.
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Offline Anodizer

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2009, 02:02:41 AM »
They aren't "brainwashed".   The only people I see brainwashed are the paranoids.   Especially after NK threatens Japan a helluva lot more than SK.   But the US/SK always gets mentioned more.   

Give it up.   You're taking for granted what the NK people are like, by hearing spoon fed BS from our media.   Again, the majority of that population doesn't want War.   I am smart, but I don't live my life in fear and never will.   

Must disagree here..  The DPRK are spoon fed more BS than here..  Only thing is, they're spoon smacks you over the head several times to make sure you "get it"..
Kids are indoctrinate from a very young age in the DPRK..  Until they are shown something different from what the government run schools teach them(which will never happen)
they will never think anything differently unless they are one of the lucky "deserters" (as the DPRK likes to call them) who seek asylum in the South or any other western country that will take them..  These people are never exposed to anything beyond what the government wants them to see or believe..
 
Even in the worst of tensions between the Soviets and "The West", western culture still found it's way behind the Iron Curtain..  It's people were not completely cut off from the western world
as the people of the DPRK are..  Most people of both sides realized exactly what was going on regardless of either side's propaganda..  The DPRK situation is totally different  The old generation who lived before there was a North and South are mostly passed on..  It doesn't help that Japan occupied Korea with an iron fist for 35 years..  There are several generations who were born under the tutelage of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il..  These people are effectively indoctrinated and are literally brain washed..  They do not see fault in Kim Jong Il or the DPRK government.  Their media is censored and arranged in a such a way that lays blame for everything and that the US is set for invasion at any moment..  

Check out this article..  Gives some interesting insight..  Gives especially detailed info how kids in the DPRK are indoctrinated and are basically "little spies".
http://www.tparents.org/Moon-Books/WU2/WU2-6-2.htm


Karaya, you as a US citizen and having been born in this country will find it easy to reason that people as oppressed as North Koreans could think they're way out of the propaganda their government run news and cultural outlets spout at them..  Sure, that would be easy to do if they had umpteen different news outlets, the internet, several news papers with opposing views,
CSPAN, CNN, FOX NEWS, MSNBC, etc, etc, etc.  Those people don't have the common information available to us to make up their own minds..  This has been going on since the inception of North Korea..  So, yes...  The Populace is effectively brainwashed..  Case in point, I have read countless times of North Koreans that made it to the South via China and Thailand..  Upon getting to North Korea, they find they have absolutely no skills and cannot be productive..  Things like banking or the grocery store(probably never seeing so much food in one place in their lives) are alien concepts to them that they have never even imagined or knew existed..  So, take the fact that most North Koreans are poorly educated(only relatives of the political elite and model party members are allowed secondary education), along with the fact that the population is effectively isolated from any outside influence: Yes....They are brainwashed to think the west are devils..  They are so indoctrinated that those who have defected actually miss being in the North..  Read some of this info in NatGeo a few months ago but they have the article online as well..    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text
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Offline Anodizer

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2009, 02:18:03 AM »
One thing that slips thru the cracks of these kinds of comparisons, in my experience, is that different cultures will place different amount of emphasis on something like children in different ways.  How much total emphasis, or what is emphasized about any given topic needs to be specified if you really want to make meaningful comparisons.

I understand what you're saying and will give you an example..
In modern Asian culture, a child's education is very important..  Parents will do all they can to make sure at least one of their children attend a university and get an education..
When a child fails at school, he/she is more or less disowned.  The parents placed a great amount of resources into that child and they failed, thus wasting those valuable resources.
This is seen as one of the greatest disrespects possible: to fail ones parents when they put forth such effort to get you into a university..

In western culture, failing isn't seen as the be all end all..  You can be the biggest F up in the world and your folks will still love you and you'll still have plenty of friends..  Hell, they'll even visit you and write you in prison if you end up there..  In Asian culture, this is unheard of and not even given thought..  One that is deemed a failure is ostracized..  It is made known to everyone in the community.. 


 

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Offline Yenny

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2009, 07:36:00 AM »
  I have a friend who is a F/A-18 pilot there but not sure where he is station at.

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Offline Stoney

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2009, 08:21:23 AM »
I'm not sure where any of the things you stated as experiencing or seeing disproves my point.......?

It wasn't meant to.  I'm obviously not going to change your mind.  You said:

Quote
Just a question, do you even know anything of Asian culture?  Asian History?  Have you been there?  How many Asians do you actually know that are from their respective countries that spent a significant portion of their lives there and not born in the US or some other country?
I think that if you knew this information, you'd retract what you're saying...

The things I stated as experiencing or seeing was a response to this excerpt quoted above.  Yes, I do know some things about Asian culture.  Yes I do know a good deal of Asian history.  I have been (lived) there, etc.  My original contention stands.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline Anodizer

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2009, 08:26:16 AM »
It wasn't meant to.  I'm obviously not going to change your mind.  You said:

The things I stated as experiencing or seeing was a response to this excerpt quoted above.  Yes, I do know some things about Asian culture.  Yes I do know a good deal of Asian history.  I have been (lived) there, etc.  My original contention stands.

That's cool, man..
Agree to disagree.... :salute
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Offline Sikboy

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2009, 10:01:54 AM »
Must disagree here..  The DPRK are spoon fed more BS than here..

One of my all time favorite duties was bringing in the "news" from North Korea.

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Offline Anodizer

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2009, 11:12:30 AM »
Upon getting to North Korea, they find they have absolutely no skills and cannot be productive..  Things like banking or the grocery store(probably never seeing so much food in one place in their lives) are alien concepts to them that they have never even imagined or knew existed..  So, take the fact that most North Koreans are poorly educated(only relatives of the political elite and model party members are allowed secondary education), along with the fact that the population is effectively isolated from any outside influence: Yes....They are brainwashed to think the west are devils..  They are so indoctrinated that those who have defected actually miss being in the North..  Read some of this info in NatGeo a few months ago but they have the article online as well..    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text


Had to correct something here..  I meant to say upon arriving in SOUTH Korea, not North...
Sorry, it was extremely late... :salute
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Offline DMBEAR

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2009, 02:13:34 PM »
They aren't "brainwashed".   The only people I see brainwashed are the paranoids.   Especially after NK threatens Japan a helluva lot more than SK.   But the US/SK always gets mentioned more.   

Give it up.   You're taking for granted what the NK people are like, by hearing spoon fed BS from our media.   Again, the majority of that population doesn't want War.   I am smart, but I don't live my life in fear and never will.   

Paranoids?  Do you think the BS from the media at large is worse than what the NKoreans are hearing from the "media" there?  If so, you outta take that foil hat off your head.

I believe history has shown that a missinformed, closed off society is easily led to an irrational national pride to do things that are suicidal.  I don't think it's living in fear to be aware of these nations.  It's simply comparing a current event with similar situations to what we have seen in the past.

You don't need to live your life in fear to compare historical events.

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2009, 02:24:25 PM »
From what I've heard, NK is the only dictatorship where if you get an average citizen alone in a place where it's obvious that no one can hear him, he'll still avow his love for Dear Leader and cast a glance over his shoulder.  All of this assumes that he'll even talk to you and not avoid you out of fear.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2009, 02:35:23 PM »
Paranoids?  Do you think the BS from the media at large is worse than what the NKoreans are hearing from the "media" there?  If so, you outta take that foil hat off your head.

I believe history has shown that a missinformed, closed off society is easily led to an irrational national pride to do things that are suicidal.  I don't think it's living in fear to be aware of these nations.  It's simply comparing a current event with similar situations to what we have seen in the past.

You don't need to live your life in fear to compare historical events.

You're trying to split a hair, that shouldn't be.   The fact remains, NK hasn't "invaded anyone" amidst "sabre rattling".   They haven't, because they won't.   There are many paranoids in this Country Assi.    I'm just as informed as Junky is, some of the posts in here already are "paranoid". 

Now that you mention the media.   It is very interesting that the "pancreatic cancer" thing came out of the blue after the last test.  As soon as this "condition broke in the media", I laughed at the coincidence of facts and still do.   Because people are taking this also as gospel.   The truth is noone really knows for sure if he really has pancreatic cancer.   The Machiavellian principle comes into effect here.   He wants to stay in power and will do anything to smoke screen the rest of the World.

All I'm saying is that I don't give a rat's arse about the smoke screen, because it will remain there, without him "attacking".   Even China has tightened the leash on them since.   There have been no attacks in the past, since 53.   Pot shots on the DMZ or in the tunnels, not included as it will continue to happen.   
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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2009, 02:41:32 PM »
Kim's son's seem somewhat westernized (booze and gambling :D ) - I predict when push comes to shove once Kim is out of the way they'll push for re-unification.

that's the oldest son and he's taken himself out of the running to replace his father.  The youngest son (I think he's around 24) is the one closest to the father's ideology and is the one slated to replace him after the father kicks the bucket. 


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Offline Tac

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2009, 03:08:35 PM »
I've been and lived in Asia (albeit not as long as i'd wish I had.. heck I wish I was still there!  :devil ) ... in S. Korea and Japan plus here in the US I've met many immigrants from Vietnam and China so its as close to first-hand knowledge I can get. My intended major was international studies with focus on Asia and history has been one of my greatest interests so I've read a lot about their history. By no means im an expert but here's my view on it:

Life is valued less in Asia : Incorrect. They value life as much as we do.

-however-

there is one overriding factor which is endemic to all asian cultures: Face (call it honor, family honor, etc.. in short, what others in the society will think of you).

To save or to keep 'face' a family that can love their kids as much as we do are quite capable (and its expected of them in many cases) to do something drastic... failing a university entrance for example can result in the young adult being shunned by the family or 'relocated' far away so his dishonorable failure is not learned by others in their social circle. Girls that get pregnant when teens are forced into miscarriages or abortions or are thrown out of the house (either thrown to the streets or sent to live with a far away relative.. usually one that has significantly less social status than they do).

These are extreme examples yes, but they are quite common and the only reason you dont hear much about this is because they are kept secret. The few that do get known become scandals in the local community (which reinforces the need for such drastic measures).

As for the value of life ... down to the individual / family level its the same as us.. but when it comes to their government and society in the macro-scale, the value of life is thrown out the window. Overall in my opinion, their societies are based more on a group-consciousness ... the idea that the whole is more valuable than the one (and an idea which the ruling elite always uses to their advantage as it is with all societies). This is why you can see how in all their wars and conflicts their soldiers are practically cannon fodder (and im not talking equipment or training im talking how they are sent out to fight.. its almost a pattern of them to send a force into a suicidal attack so the following force overruns the place. this is true even in modern times...and you will not see this on western societies with the exception perhaps of the ol' USSR).

When it comes to N. Korea you need to take the above into consideration. Their leader is a very smart nutjob, underneath him are the wealthy elite and below them is the military and finally you have the starving population. All of these with the exception of the leader and the wealthy elite were born and raised knowing only that they live and die for the leader and that their country is the best at everything and the rest of the world hates them for it, etc. The higher ups of course, know their country is utter crap but since they live in luxury its in their best interest to make things stay that way.

So.. will N Korea attack? I'm certain they wont because if they do they will lose and that means losing everything they have. This is not 1950's situation nor will there be another korean war simply because they no longer have the backing of Russia or China. N. Korea stands alone and they know this.

What I think will happen is that once the 'dear leader' dies and his 20yr old son given command, we will see about 5 years of the same old saber rattling (to keep face) and then things will calm down. I do hope that the son, having been educated and lived in the west would take small steps to improving the nation and eventually bringing N. korea to the late 20th century equivalent.

 


Offline DMBEAR

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Re: Hard Times for N. Korea
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2009, 03:57:11 PM »

What I think will happen is that once the 'dear leader' dies and his 20yr old son given command, we will see about 5 years of the same old saber rattling (to keep face) and then things will calm down. I do hope that the son, having been educated and lived in the west would take small steps to improving the nation and eventually bringing N. korea to the late 20th century equivalent. 

I read "we will see" and "I hope"....Obviously you could understand someone keeping eyes on something you yourself are not sure about.

So.. will N Korea attack? I'm certain they wont because if they do they will lose and that means losing everything they have. This is not 1950's situation nor will there be another korean war simply because they no longer have the backing of Russia or China. N. Korea stands alone and they know this.

Potential isolation has stopped many attacks.  Many have gone on till the bloody end without hesitation.